I have been weighing parts, installing parts, and asking Shimano folks questions about the new drive train and brake parts that make up the Dyna Sys 10 speed group. Here is an update on where I am at with the group so far…………
Note: Click on any photo to enlarge it.
Our test mule for the XT Dyna Sys 10 speed group: The Stumpjumper Expert Carbon 29″er.
I have most of the group mounted to our test bike. The one snafu I ran into was mis-spec’ing the front derailluer. I asked for a low mount top pull derailluer, when it needed to be a high mount. Arrgh! I will hopefully be able to rectify this situation soon. However; this brings up an interesting point. Shimano folks told us at the presentation I attended that the 10 speed groups:XTR, XT, and SLX, were a “paradigm shift” in componentry. In other words, you are not going to be able to use 9 speed components with 10 speed systems or 10 speed components with 9 speed systems. The geometry of the derailleurs is different along with the amount of cable that the shifters pull. The chain is also said to be incompatible with 9 speed systems. Here’s what I experienced trying to use the SLX 9 speed front derailluer that I needed to use to make this bike rideable for now:
The shifter, as I mentioned, pulls more cable than the 9 speed models do. So, I had to compensate by having a ridiculously slack cable while in the granny position for now. I also had to limit the outer travel of the derailluer so as to not have the chain shift off the big ring, and more importantly, not have the inner cage of the 9 speed SLX hit the middle ring. This is exacerbated by the smaller big ring size that Dyna Sys employs, (42T vs 44T), which I allowed for by slightly cheating on the height of the derailleur set up. In the end, I had a marginally good set up that rubs in certain combinations, but……..oh well! I guess they were right all along about the parts not working across generations. This will obviously all go away once the correct front derailluer comes in.
Okay, enough of that! Let’s get on with some impressions I have of the group so far. Starting with the brakes, I noted that the perches and for that matter, the shifter clamps, were pretty burly. Shimano Skunk Works rider Paul Thomasberg told me at the presentation that Shimano tends to overbuild things. These clamps and brake perches are evidence of the mindset Shimano has to have reliable, durable parts. This comes with a sacrifice to weight, and in the case of the brake levers, no split perch. Bummer! However; the clamps opened quite wide when I unscrewed the fastener so I did not have to worry about scarring the Ritchey carbon handle bar on this bike at all.
The brake levers/master cylinders look like something from the movie “Transformers“, and they are definitely bigger in size than some levers out there. The levers are a nice shape- not too wide, not too narrow- and have a wide pivot which gives them a solid feel. I would call them two finger levers, as far as length goes. I’ll delve more into features later, but take note of the “Free Stroke” adjuster here, which is supposed to help you dial in a solid lever feel, or a very soft lever feel, or something in between. Of course, Shimano has always used a mineral oil for brake fluid and continues to do so with the new brakes.
The XT calipers look pretty familiar. Open on top for better cooling, and dual pistons with a one piece forging. The rotors we are using here are the six bolt variety with a two piece architecture. An aluminum “spider” supports a stainless steel rotor. Pretty much the same stuff we have seen before here. Shimano didn’t do anything new with brakes until you get to the XTR level.
The XT Dyna Sys rear derailluer is new; however, and as I stated before, it has a different geometry to better follow a 10 speed cassette and is optimized to work with the 10 speed shifter. Called “Long Arm” technology, the system is said to require less cable tension and add leverage to the system. What isn’t new is how the Shadow architecture snugs up into the cassette better and gets rid of the old loop of cable rear derailleurs used to have. This is nice for those who have chunky, tight trails to maneuver through. There is definitely less of a chance of biffing your derailluer with this set up. That 10 speed cassette has two aluminum carriers, each holding three cogs apiece. Then you have a single cog and a loose spacer. The next two smaller cogs have wider bases to space them properly, and the smallest is the cog next to the lock ring and has a wider base as well.
The smallest cog is an eleven tooth. The cogs run like this, from smallest to largest; 11, 13, 15, 17, 19, 21, 24, 28, 32, and the 36 tooth cog rounds out the selection. The typical ramps and profiled teeth you’d expect are here as well. Note that Shimano claims they “tightened up” the middle of the cassettes gearing ratios to better reflect the gears most riders seem to be using.
Here’s the special 10 speed mountain bike specific chain Shimano came up with to make this work seamlessly and flawlessly. (That’s what they told us anyway!) This is a ground up new design and not a re-hash of a 10 speed road chain. In fact, Shimano claims it is the “first ever mountain bike specific 10 speed chain”. It is directional, (meaning you shouldn’t run the chain with the logos facing inwards), as the inner plates are designed to pick up to the next largest cog on an HG 10 speed cassette, and the outer plates are designed to pick up the pins and ramps on the front chain wheels more efficiently. In fact, Paul Thomasberg told me that the new chain will cause Shimano to adapt many of the new features found in the mountain 10 speed chain into whatever new road 10 speed chain they design next. Interestingly, Paul also related to me that prototype chains were all hand made, by one man, link by link, in Japan, at an astounding cost of approximately $40,000 a piece! He also said he tested several prototype chains before a final design was settled on. This is said to have resulted in the smoothest shifting mountain bike system yet. We’ll certainly put that claim to the test!
Here’s a look at the “underbelly” of the crank set. XT Dyna Sys will now have the carbon composite chain wheel in the middle, which you can see here. It has the ramps, profiles and pick ups to help the HG-X chain move up from the granny gear to the middle ring. The outside ring is a highly machined, thick aluminum affair with riveted in pick up pins and machined in profiles to aid in shifting. Interestingly, the granny ring even has profiled teeth. The BCD of the chain rings remains the same as before on the Dyna Sys XT. Note that the asymmetrical chain has no markings on the inner plates.
The shifting is done by what is now a familiar Shimano Dual release trigger system. There is an optical display window which is removable, (I removed the ones on the shifters here before mounting the shifters), and has a round, badged cover that you can use in its stead, just like 9 speed XT. The shifter paddles are longer and thinner than SRAM triggers, and we’ll see how I get on with them after dialing in the system.
Weights: Here are the weights for the components I was sent as weighed by myself on a digital scale. (Your mileage may vary)
Rotors: 160mm 6 bolt type: 160gm
Calipers w/hoses and levers, system pre-bled w/mineral oil: F- 290gm R- 300gm (Hoses will be shortened eventually making these weights slightly heavy)
Crankset: (Including standard Shimano BB bearings and sleeve)- 850 gms (Note: The Specialized test mule has press fit Shimano bearings and we did not use the supplied BB)
Shifters: (Each w/shifter cable installed) 140gms
Cassette: 11-36T- 340gms
Chain: 280 gms
Rear Derailleur: 230 gms
Front Derailleur: 140 gms (Note: We have the wrong derailluer and will give the weight of the high mount, top pull derailleur when it arrives)
I will be in contact with a Shimano marketing/tech person who is going to answer some of your questions. If you have anything you want me to forward, (within reason), put your question in the comments and I’ll see what I can do. I can tell you now that an XT level 2X10 system will “eventually come out”. I didn’t get a time line on when that might be though. MSRP’s will be coming along in a later post as well. Until then, I will be riding what I have here, shortening brake hoses, adjusting things if necessary, and I will report back with an update in a couple of weeks, hopefully.
Note: This component group was provided by Shimano for evaluation free of charge. I am not being bribed or paid for this review. I will strive to give my honest opinions throughout.
I got your next experiment – How about mixing and matching SRAM and Shimano components? On my old 26″ bike I had FSA cranks, SRAM chain/cassette/grip shifters and Shimano XT derailleurs and it worked great.
Will the 10sp rings be compatible w/ last years crank? I am thinking of upgrading, but still have tons of life on this crank?
GT-Good work as always. 29’r riders asked for a 29’r option drivetrain and now we have it! Any word on other XT or SLX “upgrades”. I see that XTR has a new 985 hub…
@dman: I have already considered the swapping of wheels to see how that works out. (SRAM cassette with Shimano der vs Shimano cassette with SRAM der) maybe other swapping will occur later on.
@bikewrench: As far as the XT stuff is concerned, yes. The XTR rings are a new BCD. SLX, when it becomes available, should be 104/64BCD as well. When the 2X XT comes out, it may share the XTR BCD. I’m betting it will.
@Willie: Well, you will see grousing about the 24T granny ring! I do suppose the 22T granny can be swapped in from aftermarket, or previous Shimano 64BCD cranks. Shimano did mention that you could do this, by the way, but that it would affect the shifting somewhat.
Any possibility of an XT level double crankset or will i be forced to shell out for that sexy new xtr piece to get some 180mm double crank awesomeness?
from the last paragraph:
“I can tell you now that an XT level 2X10 system will “eventually come out”. I didn’t get a time line on when that might be though.”
Is this going to kill the 9 speed set-ups? Any chance that there will be an XT/XTR 11-36 9 speed cassette?
Carbon composite middle ring, which would likely be the one I would use the most. Sounds like that will be expensive to replace. I’d have to keep that away from the wet sloppy gravels. Might be me, but it I’d rather see the cassette stop at a 13 or 15 on the small end and add a couple of closer ratios in the middle or big end.
Steve I agree with you. I really don’t use the 11 much on my bike. there has been lots of talk about the 36 tooth rear being good for 29er but none that I have read that says you really don’t need to go down to the 11. Maybe a 36-13 could be a great cassette to have with closer ratios.
@Jake: Well, in a word: Yes.
@Steve Fuller, @milto, I think the idea was that since Shimano was “tightening up” the crank set ratios, (taking the 44 to a 42 and the 22 to a 24), they felt that giving the rider an 11T on the high end out back, and the 36T on the low end out back would compensate for the change in chain rings. Believe me, they didn’t do anything because of 29″ers! They said as much to us at the presentation, and I quote: “There is no such thing as 29″er gearing, only mountain bike gearing.” 😉
Yes, the 36T is thought to be good for the 29″er, but in Shimano’s view, this group was designed for “mountain biking”, (Read: 26 inch bikes), and 29″ers have only just registered on their radar, seemingly. At least, that is the impression I was given. Heck, they don’t even think the single speed market is big enough to warrant an XT level SS crank, so I’m sure 29″ers are down the ladder there even further!
yea, Shimano is going to be shocked at how many X0 X9 groups are sold after they drop 9 speed. Why would I pay way more money for an extra gear in the middle and less range? When you compare the lowest gear of 22-34 and 24-36 the current 22-34 is actually lower (18.8 vs 19.3 gear inches on a 29er wheel). So the “29er groupset is the current 9 speed one (I guess that is why the Shimano Rep was backing away from picturing this as a 29er group., It is actually the anti-29er group). Basically, they are giving a narrower range of gearing (not as low on the bottom and not as high on the top) and more repetitive gears in the middle and doing it with larger rear cogs and larger small chainring in the front that all weigh more than if they did it the current way.
Bikewrench:
As far as using a 9 speed XT crank with the rest of the group; I can almost guarantee that the 10 speed chain will slip down between the middle carbon ring and the small chainring. (Last years 9 speed XT crank had the carbon inner chainring too) The reason I know this is a long story. PM me if you need the details.
As far as double groups go, All my Mountain bikes are 29ers with 22-34/bash and 11-34. in my opinion you don’t need a big ring with a 29er.. This combo gives me from 18.8 to 89.6 gear inches. I can easily get to 25 mph with this gearing and at a cadence of 120 the 34-11 with a 29er wheel gives me 32 mph (that would be mostly down hill). RaceFace makes a really nice ramped and pinned 34 that I can get for around $35 that shifts perfect.
This to me is one of the main advantages of a 29er. With the same gearing I use, a 26er would range from 16.8 to 80.4 gear inches. So they gain 2 gear inches on the bottom that most of us really don’t need and that a 29er wheel probably makes up for, and if we do need lower gearing we can run a 20 small in front. But on the top they are dropping over 9 gear inches which is enough that they almost have to use a large chainring.
In the meantime, I am stocking up on M770/M771 front dérailleurs. I always liked the Shimano FD’s the best and paired them with SRAM everywhere else in the drivetrain and Avid brakes..
@Yourdaguy: Isn’t SRAM shifting everything to 10 speed all the way down to X-7 for 2011? If they are not, it’s news to me. And if they are offering 9spd in 2011 at these levels, I am betting it won’t be for long.
And if you like low gears, why not bolt on a granny that’s a 22? There ya go. Cheap and easy fix for those going to 10 spd XT. Just a suggestion.
Will be interessting to read and test how the front shifts with the new chain and ring designs.
However, Shimano better get to the design board with the 11-36T cassette. 340g?? Come on, an SRAM X9-cassette punches in at just above 200g. XT-cassettes will loose their status as the default budget upgrade in my book.
While I can accept the shimano’s logic of using an 11 with the tightening of the front ratios, I’m wondering how much that will play out in practice? I might find myself using the 11 on long gravel downhills, but that’s rare in pure MTB riding I’d think. With the inner ring, cross chaining becomes an issue as well. If I’m in the 24×11, there’s a ratio close enough using the 42 where the cross chaining would be less of an issue.
Is Sram shifting everything to 10 speed? I havn’t heard that. If you put a 22 on and in my case a 34 then you lose all that supposed optimized shifting and you still have a huge weight problem with the 36 out back. I just don’t see the need for more gears in the middle. In the up and down places I ride I am almost always shifting more than one gear at a time now so with 10 speed, I would be shifting 3 gears instead of 2.
Yes – 9spd is soon to be dead. All new SRAM stuff is 10 speed, from X7 all the way up to XX. http://mountain.bike198.com/first-look-sram-10-speed-mtb-components-x0-x9-and-x7/
One question I have is how long will they continue to support 9spd for replacement parts? If my cassette wears out I don’t want to upgrade my entire drivetrain.
Generally chainrings, cassetts, and chain are available for a long time. What is hard to get is shifters, and derailers.
Questions about the crankset and front shifting:
a) The crankset is three rings. Could I substitute one of my existing cranksets? Are the rings the same thickness?
b) Did you think about using a standard left shifter along with your SLX front derailleur? In other words, would the front shifting work were I to mount a front shifter and derailleur from a nine-speed setup?
I found your comment that the 10-speed shifters pull more cable to be interesting. Is Shimano moving closer to Sram’s 1:1 cable pull? Do you know what ratio Shimano has settled upon?
yourdaguy
some of us need a big ring on our 29ers for racing, if i had to give up a ring it would be my 22 not my 44. The last race I did had 2000ft of climbing on steep singletrack per lap and i never used my 22 but spent the whole descent in my 44, a 28-42 double with a 11-34 would be fine gearing for me. everyone rides different terrain and has different fitness so more gearing options are good
Jonathon: a: depends on the crankset. Some 9 speed cranks work with 10 speed chain and some allow the chain to get between chainrings.
b: All 9 speed front would probably work. The narrower chain might still be a problem: see a:
I just installed a 1×10 XT Dynasys group with a Truvativ Stylo 1.1 crankset on my Niner Air 9. Everything works fabulously except I am getting a lot vibration/noise out of the drivtrain in the 34 cog. You can actually feel it in the derailleur. Is this a chainline issue, or something to do with the 9-speed Truvativ chainring. I can’t imagine the Dynasys middle ring position would make that much difference unless it sits a little more inboard than the Truvativ. Any thoughts?
More than likely the tooth profile on the 9 speed chainrings is hitting the “special” 10 speed chain on the plate at the high cross angle. You can probably fix this by using a slightly narrower shim on the Stylo bottom bracket. The standard BB shims are 2.5 mm. QBP sells a set of narower shims for this purpose. A 1.5 or 2 in place of the 2.5 would probably solve your issue.
@Leven, @yourdaguy, Or it may be something inherent in the system. I am getting this sensation immediately upon first use. Now that I have a few rides in, it has lessened considerably. I do notice it more in cogs I am rarely using at this stage. How “bad” is it? It vibrates the pedals at first, then lessens with use.
Maybe a wear in process? I don’t know, and obviously it is something I will be bringing up in later posts and with Shimano reps. Stay tuned…..
yourdaguy:
My frame has a 73mm shell, which is also leaning me to believe it may be a chain line issue.
Took the maiden voyage this morning. The shifting is phenomenal, but the racket from the top of the cassette range is definitely noticeable. It doesn’t affect shifting at all, but man does it sound bad. I would compare the noise to the front derailleur chain rub you get from drivetrain cross. I keep waffling on whether or not to get a SLX crank, and set it up with a single ring. It would be an expensive experiment though. I find it interesting you are having the same issues Guitar Ted. Look forward to hearing what you have to say after a few more rides.
Here is a far cheaper alternative to try:
http://spicercycles.com/product/wheels-manufacturing-1.8mm-black-alloy-bb-spacer-sku-cr1236-qc37.htm
yourdaguy:
You don’t use any spacers with a 73mm shell and a Truvativ GXP external bottom bracket. So, adding one would make it worse.
My bad, I thought the 73’s used a spacer on each side and the 68’s did without>
Performance 9 speed oriented gear will be DEAD. It will be like 8 speed right now. When the blowout sales come, I will finally upgrade to 9 speed just to get the 36T 9 speed cassettes that Shimano is offering. Time to buy a couple of X.0 Twisters.
I am really disappointed that SRAM and Shimano chose to push this all the way down through X.7/SLX all at once.
As far as the Cranks go … the doubles from SRAM are really cool and should help 29ers in the Midwest with more suitable and useable gearing. The XTR double crank looks like it was built by Hitori Hanzo and I want one!!! The other Shimano cranks were downgraded by reducing their gearing profile. You really don’t gain very many gears by shifting on a 22-32-44 crank. Shimano made this worse by going to a 24-32-42.
Back to Shimano, hopefully their new cable actuation ratio will put them back on par with SRAM. At the same time, unless they migrate their road groups, they have now ceeded the interoprability crown to SRAM as their performance MTB, and road groups are now compatible.
So – I’ve got XT 10spd components on the way to set-up the rear..I figured I could get by with an SLX 2ring FD and a Race Face 24t and 34t on my standard crank.
I realize the shifting will not be perfect but I figure this will get me by until they release the XT double next year…any thoughts?
29ftw:
Your front shifting may be jacked, but based on my experience your rear will probably be spot on.
I did go ahead and order an SLX Dyna-sys crankset to see if chainline is improved with the 10-speed specific crank. I will post an update after the next ride.
24/34 Front?????
You have a 34T middle with a 24 tooth granny. It’s a high geared triple with the big ring removed … not a double. Why not just stick with a 22-32 with a bashring???
The purpose of a compact double is the “split the difference” between the granny and big ring. At the same time, it improves the overall chainline by equally center the two rings. You can’t get that with a modified triple.
SRAM has plenty of options coming out!!!
@BearSquirrel – actually, moving to the 11-36t cassette will give me an additional two teeth over my current 9spd (11-34t) set-up so jumping the front up by two teeth will be approximately the same gearing as I have now with a 22/32/42 (never really use the big tho). This is really just a patch till the XT double is available and I do realize the chainline will be much better with the XT double.
I’d rather not mix with any current SRAM offerings. I could just use my current 22/32 rings and have crazy low range until I get the double!
Two years ago I raced Cat 1 with 2×9 11-34 rear, 28-38 front (made from and XTR 180mm Crank). Starting this year I raced 2×9 11-34 rear, 26-36 front and never used the 26 and won my first two races. Now, i am going Ti Seven Sola SL and building a 1 x 10, XT 11-36 rear, 32t front (made from FSA afterburner BB30, 175 arms with paul chain keeper. This is two gears below one to one, so imagine that if single speeds can push am much harder gear, then this new set up should be gravy. Its cleaner, simpler, 1lb lighter than with front shifter, de-railer and rings. Like a single speed, you slow up and use body weight and rhythm to move the bike forward. Regarding any chain-ring over 38t on 29er, they are useless and I don’t know why the industry is so slow to pick up on this. If you want a triple for a 29er I would run 24-32-38. I believe that 22 pulses to much and does not distribute the power evenly. It is better to go slower and more round with even energy transmission. Just my perspective.
Allow me to explain:
Lay chain out on table with markings face up and oriented so that you can read them. Install on bike so that top of chain path markings are readable. (The markings on the return path to the rear of the bike will be upside down)
Now lay chain out on table with markings face up but upside down, Install on bike so that top of the chain path markings are facing you but upside down. (The markings on the return path to the rear of the bike will be right side up).
By installing the chain both ways you are following the correct installation instructions but in doing so, you are definitely not ensuring that the chain only follows a set directional path.
The only incorrect way to install the chain is to mount it in such a manner where the markings are not visible on the chain when looking at the chain from the right side of the bike.
Hope this helps.
Looks like my previous post is missing the first few sentences.
I was going to state that the chain is not directional. It is heads/tails-“rectional”.
just found the correct answer here:
http://www.bikerumor.com/2010/09/16/2011-shimano-xtr-complete-technical-overview/
“You should be able to read the logo on the outside of the chain, right side up on the section at the top of the big ring”
I have been running the 10sp 11-36 for the last two months: xt cassette, xt rd, xt chain with a FSA Afterburner BB20 crank made into a 1×10 with a Widget 32t stainless ringwich. This is on a Seven Sola SL 29er Ti. I came from a SRAM XO 1×9 twist and/or thumb shifters. The current Shimano system works very well and the chain will work on a 9sd front ring no problem. The shifts are clean crisp and reliable, the gradation of gears is well done and the 36t rear is a nice addition for super steep grunts, although no the bailout gear you might think. I originally wanted to go XO 10speed grip with the x dome cassette, but it was not available at the time nor is it as write this. I don’t like shelling out for expensive drive-trains because they are a consumable parts. I make the mistake of a Carbon Crank two years ago, thank god that is over. I think that XO and XT work just as well as XX and XTR respectively. Things that I wish were better, but just on the XT shifter: I wish you had a shorter lever though for up shifting and that a single throw would sent you up 4 gears at a time. The SRAM thumb shifting does this better. The XT lever is very long which makes it a lighter touch, but you have to push it further. I really like grip shift for this reason, I believe that it is faster when grabing a handful of gears. I also like the wider grip the grip shift gives you at the bar when combine with the fatter ESI Grips. The downfall to grip shift is that you need to pre shift or shift earlier because you take your hand off the break lever to shift. Most noticeable when breaking hard on a fast rough downhill and you need to down shift for a hard corner at the bottom. It’s just something you need to get used to. To me its worth the trade off. I’m eager to see if their is 10sp grip coming out. The conclusion: The XT ten speed works slick and its worth the money.
I meant to say the Crank is a BB30, not a BB20 which was a typo. To comment on the crank, it is light and super super ridged. I built the bike to have a stiff BB and Crank but have a more than normal vertical compliance in the rear triangle. It worked and its my dream bike.
How come that front shifter pull more wire than “9sp”? Shimano does not have front shifters dedicated to Dyna-Sys, they are the same for 8/9/10.
@Radomir82: Well, the one I have pulls more cable than a 9spd one does. I measured it, and it definitely does not work with a non-10 spd derailleur. 🙂
Can I use truvativ 24-36 crankset combined with fd XTR M985 XTR rd and 10 speed,
what is proposed by using truvativ crankset 24-36.