In my first update on Shimano’s 10 speed Dyna Sys components, I listed the first impressions I had, detailed some of the features, and let you all know my bone headed choice in front derailluer spec, which led me to discover that 9spd stuff really isn’t compatible with the new 10 speed stuff. You can read all about that here if you missed it the first time.
Update II: I did receive the correct front derailluer and I have it installed. The weight was still 140 grams, so no change there. Of course, it works far better than the 9spd one did and shifting was easily set up once everything matched up. The new front derailleur has a modified inner cage and tail that clears both the middle ring and helps with your rear tire clearance a bit. The old 9spd derailleur was deficient on both counts. I will reserve comments on the shifting performance so far until I address the subject further down in this post.
First I wanted to clear up a couple of misconceptions and address a couple of questions that arose from the first update. First off, there will be no 2X XT cranks……yet. XT and SLX doubles will follow, but no timeline on that was given to me by Shimano. I can only imagine that it won’t be long, given that SRAM is really hitting the 2X thing heavily for 2011. I would look for 2X XT and SLX offerings sooner than later, and I’m betting it will happen as a mid-year addition to the current line. We’ll see. That’s just a guess on my part.
Secondly, let’s just underscore that 10 speed and 9 speed are not interchangeable. Shimano has stressed this, and my own experience seems to bear this out so far. Stay tuned for an XX/XT mash up, which I will be performing soon. I hope to find out if XX and XT Dyna Sys are at all compatible. I would certainly think so from a wheel swapping perspective, but we’ll see about derailleurs. I did note that the 10 speed chain seemed to run okay on 9 speed chain rings and cassettes. This was just a static test, but it would appear that a 10 speed rear set up with 9 speed cranks, rings, 9spd front shifter, and 9spd front derailluer may work out all right. I will not be pursuing that sort of set up though, so you are on your own there!
Finally, the middle ring is steel on XT Dyna-Sys, at least where the chain runs is concerned. Only the shifting assist functions are made in carbon composite. Yes, it probably will be a expensive chain ring to replace, but at least wear on that middle ring shouldn’t be an issue with the chain running on steel teeth. At this time, I do not have any cost estimates for the chain rings, but I do have some component pricing to share.
Following are MSRP’s for the various XT and SLX 10 speed components. All prices quoted in USD and subject to change.
HG74 10 spd chain………………………………………………………………..$44.99
HG94 10 spd chain………………………………………………………………..$49.99
HG81 SLX 10 spd cassettes, 11-34/11-36T……………………………………$84.99
XT M771 10 spd cassettes, 11-32/11-34/11-36T………………………………$114.99
M660 SLX cranks, 170mm, 175mm 24/32/42………………………………….$239.99
M770 XT 10 spd cranks, 165mm, 170mm, 175mm, 180mm 24/32/42…….$359.99
M660, M661 front derailleurs (4 types available)………………………………$49.99
M770, M771 front derailleurs (4 types available)………………………………$59.99
M663 SLX 10 spd Shadow rear derailleur……………………………………..$89.99
M773 10 spd XT SG and SGS Shadow rear derailleurs……………………..$129.99
M660 SLX 10 spd shifter set……………………………………………………..$119.99
M770 XT 10 spd shifter set……………………………………………………….$189.99
It is a relief to see that at least the XT level 10 speed cassettes won’t be astronomically priced, like XX are, and in fact, I think the “wear item” parts here look to be quite reasonably priced. XTR will probably be a different animal though, but then again, it always has been!
Performance- First Impressions: I’ve had some time on 10 speed XX before this, and I will admit that XX should be held to a higher standard than XT would be, so take the following comparisons with a grain of salt. XT Dyna Sys shifting is very familiar feeling to those who know and ride Shimano stuff. The rear shifts well, quietly, and quickly. The front is very good. Not “XX” amazingly good. I still hold XX front shifting out as being tops in its field, but XT Dyna Sys is no slouch so far. I don’t think many folks are going to see a great deal of difference in shifting feel and performance from 9 spd XT to 10 spd Dyna Sys XT. That’s probably a good thing too. So far, I haven’t got any complaints with shifting, even through some water crossings and some mud. No loss in performance at all through the testing in bad conditions.
The one thing that does keep impressing me are the brakes, which I know are not anything that new, but I haven’t spent an appreciable amount of time on Shimano brakes. These are super quiet, powerful, and modulate well. One thing I am not impressed with are the shifter paddles, which seem to be ergonomically off a bit. The return/higher gear selector is a “two way” lever. You can push it with your thumb, or tap it with your index finger to initiate a shift into a smaller cassette cog out back. I find that the way the lever sets is too close to the underside of the handle bar, and that the lever is too narrow. The XT Dyna-Sys shifter paddles are elongated, narrow bits that just seem to be a step backwards ergonomically for me. I much prefer the older, bigger triggers Shimano used in the past and also SRAM’s triggers, which have a big target to hit with your thumb. I have already missed shifts due to missing hitting the triggers on these 10 speed shifters. Maybe given some time I will adapt to these, but I think they are unnecessarily too skinny and too tucked up under the bars to work well with my hands.
Otherwise I am planning on doing more rides in poor conditions to test the performance of this gruppo. I hope to report back in a month or so with a Mid-Term Update.
Editor’s Note: These components were supplied at no charge for evaluation/testing by Shimano. I am not being paid, nor bribed for my review. I will strive to give my honest opinions throughout.
We’ve been running ten speed chains on 9 speed xtr and xt/SramX0 groups for over a year now at my shop. Several of our pro riders do it and have not had any issues. Also, we did ad 3×10 setup for a customer with 9 speed XTR front stuff and XX in the rear, also without issues.
Should the shift levers be moved to the inside of the brake levers? That’s how i’ve seen it done with 9 sp…
GT-Do you really feel the closer ratios? Does it make you a faster rider? Is the cable pull the same as for Dura-Ace? Paul thumbies possible?
@kgcramer: I had heard previous to receiving this gruppo that folks were doing what you are commenting on without problems. I have also heard that single speeders are using 10 speed chains. (!!!) I find that surprising if true.
@Greg: That is certainly a matter of preference. It wouldn’t fix the ergonomics of the triggers though, and for me, due to the length of the triggers, it would make the set up almost unworkable if I swapped positions with the brake levers. Besides, I like the brake levers inboard so I can use the tip of my index finger at the end of the lever. That’s just my preference perhaps, but it works great for me.
@Willie: I am still working out what it is that’s going on while riding. One standout thing: I can climb steeper stuff in the middle gear with the 36T. That’s something that I really liked right away. Cable pull for the newest Dura Ace is not a known thing to me, but purely judging from the derailleur architecture, I’d say it isn’t the same as Dyna-Sys. Paul thumbies wouldn’t work if that’s the case, at least in indexing mode.
I’ll have further performance updates later, but as to the “faster rider” question, I can absolutely say “yes” to that, and there is a very specific reason why that is. 😉
10spd chain on a singlespeed?? Sounds like a horrible idea. My 9spd SRAM 991 hollowpin chain wont even work with a surly SS chainring, the inner plates are too narrow for the chain to drop all the way down on the teeth of the chainring.
I use the 991 chain only when the bike is set up 1×9, and when I make the switch I have to put the XT middle ring back on the cranks.
@willie: as far as thumbies go, a new XT 10 speed cassette, 10 Speed barcons, and a 9 speed generation Shadow rear derailleur should work just fine. The older derailleur is on the same cable pull as the road stuff.
Any reason I could not run SRAM 9-speed grip shift on the front, 9 speed XTR front derailleur, triple 9-speed crank/chainrings and the rest 10 speed XT? This set-up gives me a trimmable front derailleur (been doing this for years) and 30 gears without having to replace my CK BB and nice FSA carbon crank. Might be nice for backpacking as well. I thought about going this way when the SRAM XX first came out, but the sticker shock stopped me.
I’m running 10 speed chains on 9 speed group also. Cheap’o SRAM 1030 chain w/ KMC missing link on SRAM x9 rear derailler, x0 Twisters, XT 9-spd cassette, Origin 8 2×9 crank, Rival front der. Personally I feel that the 10 speed chain shifts better than a 9 spd. Certainly less drive train noise with the narrower chain.
I’ve got little bitty hands, but I preferred to run my XT shifters on the outside of my brake levers – and I had my brake levers set up for 1 finger braking.
You can remove the shift indicators, as I’m sure you know, and Shimano has sweet blanks to replace the stupid indicators with…
Yea I can see the 36 tooth rear would be like a rear “granny”….but why 10 speed 36 not 9 speed 36? With cross-chaining and all…is it really a 30 speed? Man I remember when 10 speeds was considered pretty cool…
@chuck1971: Rumor has it that SRAM is actually going to do a 10 spd Grip Shift and if they do not, I have seen aftermarket shifters already that give you a 10spd twisty shifter option.
@Andrew Brautigam: Yes, I did remove the indicators and replaced them with the round XT badged plug. Mentioned it in my first post on the XT Dyna Sys. 🙂
@Willie: This will be the big debate. Is 10 really necessary? Shimano says it optimized the ratios in the middle of the cassette range, so it isn’t really about the 36T, (which is there for 2X10 groups coming soon). I suspect a 9speed solution could have been made to work just fine, but SRAM going with 10’s across the board on all their performance mtb gruppos would have made 9spd a moot point. I think Shimano actually instigated all the 10 speed mtb stuff though. This has been in development for over three years now. 😉 But perhaps we will never really know the full story there.
“Finally, the middle ring is steel on XT Dyna-Sys, at least where the chain runs is concerned. Only the shifting assist functions are made in carbon composite. Yes, it probably will be a expensive chain ring to replace, but at least wear on that middle ring shouldn’t be an issue with the chain running on steel teeth. At this time, I do not have any cost estimates for the chain rings, but I do have some component pricing to share.”
The 32t chainring on the 9spd XT 770 is also a steel/composite-composite (sic) (XTR 970 features titanium teeth on a carbon fiber “base”) – hence the price should be roughly the same as the current 9spd 770 32t chainring
been riding a 10 speed crank with a nine speed setup for all else, and it works better than anything else so far.
Just curious about running 10s chains on 9speed cassettes, why? For 2011 Specialized is using a 10s SLX cassette with a SRAM X7/9 system. Seems to work ok. I’ve had that front derailleur problem with road triples as well. They middle ring was changed (42 to 39 or vice versa) and the inner plate contacts the middle ring when in the big ring. Ride on.
I guess this is why I am leaning further and further to the retro-grouch side and riding my rigid SS more and more. Every year it is something new that is not compatable with last years stuff…$45-$50 for a chain?, and that’s the least expensive part. When will the component companies make stuff that is compatable with older stuff for at least a couple of years?
@Kary: Well, similar sentiments were voiced when everything went 9 speed what…….about ten years or more ago? 🙂 And let’s be honest, nine speed replacement parts will be offered for many years to come.
This is only a burden if you feel you “have to” upgrade. But you don’t, at least not for the short term.
Obviously if you buy a new bike, you’ll be getting all the components at a “deal price” and it won’t be such a bad way to go, but again, you don’t “have to” buy in right away.
Has any one tried mixing the XT 10 speed set up with a SRAM 10 speed chain?