By Grannygear: Santa Cruz Tall Boy – Out Of The Box
The Tall Boy hit the 29er world like a shock wave, rippling through the online community with sneak pics and tidbits from the Santa Cruz blogsite. Santa Cruz was making a 29er. Not just a 29er, but a 4”travel FS made from carbon fiber and using the VPP suspension design. It was great looking, it was expected to be light and fast and it was a bold step right out of the gate.
We have ridden examples of this bike at Interbike Demo Days and it was one of our top bikes of the week. Now Grannygear is getting a chance to ride one on local trails for a month or so to get a second and more extended look at the Tall Boy. First, let’s take a look at the bike and what it brings to the trailhead and later we will follow up with our thoughts plus some comments from Mike Ferrentino of Santa Cruz cycles.
First of all, just unpacking this bike is enough to get the heart rate up. The orange color is striking and the molded carbon shapes are dead sexy. Hydroformed aluminum can make for some good looking shapes, but carbon is king of swoopyness. Just the head tube junction is enough proof of that. And, beyond good looks, there seems to be a pretty good chance this frame is stiff and stable as well. We shall see. The carbon link at the shock is very cool. This bike had been ridden many times before I got it and I noticed that there is an area at the rear of the bike where the chainstay guard does not quite cover. I think I would wrap something around this…inner tube…etc as it is obvious that the chain is hitting the frame here. I don’t think I want the chain chipping away at my carbon frame.
This XL example was set up with mostly XT 9 speed with an 11-34 rear cassette. The brakes are Avid Elixir CRs with 160mm rotors front and rear, the wheels are Mavic TN719 Disc rims laced to DT Swiss 340 rear hub with a DT Swiss 5mm RWS but the front hub is a Chub hub set up for 15mm QR. The Chub is one of those things that draws a lot of comments: “Man, that is a big hub!” Indeed it is. The front fork is a Fox 100mm F29 FIT/RLC 15QR. Whew. Other bits and pieces are all good quality equipment and represent a smart, non foo-foo build that is right in there for the average Joe and Jill. The scale showed this bike to be 27lbs 15oz with SPD pedals.
Tall Boy Geometry hyperlink http://www.santacruzmtb.com/tallboy/index.php?geometry=1
Ready to ride after some wrenching, I set the rear shock at 190psi and the sag seemed to be in the zone. The front fork felt good to go. Spinning around on the street the Tall Boy felt pretty agile and quick steering. It would be interesting to know how many buyers are setting the Tall Boy up with a 120mm fork right off the bat. With the 100mm Fox if feels pretty racy. I also noticed some pedal bob with Pro Pedal off and I could see the linkage cycling. Pro Pedal was set to the number 2 position and that stopped that.
I am very curious to see about the advantages of VPP. I have some time on short link bikes, but this will be the most consistent saddle time on one and VPP makes some claims that are pretty significant.
From the Santa Cruz website.
VPP Linkage:
-VPP suspension designs balance different forces to eliminate unwanted compression without limiting bump absorption.
The downward force on your pedals pushes most full suspension bikes down, resulting in unwanted suspension compression.
-VPP bikes use a patented link configuration and axle path to apply some of the pulling force from the chain to counteract that motion caused by pedaling.
Because the forces are balanced, VPP bikes remain able to absorb bumps when pedaling, unlike other designs that effectively lock out the rear suspension by applying too much chain pulling force. What you end up with is plush travel with no pedal-induced compression or lockout and no need for manual lockouts or other compromises.
Will the VPP win me over as all that and more? Will the promises that carbon fiber construction whispers in your ear be realized on the trail? I dunno. We will be back with our thoughts and impressions soon.
Note: The reviewed bike is being provided to Twenty Nine Inches at no charge for review. We are not being paid or bribed for this review. We will give our honest opinion or thoughts through out.
I too had to set my Propedal at the no. 2 setting. So far I’m impressed with the quality of the frame. It is mad plush with silightly more bob than my 429. Hopefully I won’t have any frame or early bearing failures like my 1st gen Blur. I’m not bashing SC, I’m heavy and I was aware of the bearing issues when I purchased that frame. The ride is extremely quiet, especially with the DT hubs I’m running.
This bike is on the short list for my next bike, so I am really looking forward to hear what you think.
Do you have any 24-hour racers on your staff? I’d love to hear what they think of the various bikes that come through.
Also, you mentioned a lot of people using the 120mm fork. If you try that out yourselves it would be great if you could mention the affect on stand-over clearance (my geometry skills are a bit shaky these days 🙂
For folks like me (living in southern NH) finding demo rides for brands like Santa Cruz, Pivot, Niner, and the like is rather difficult (there is a Santa Cruz dealer near here, but they won’t ever have a Tallboy in stock unless somebody special orders it). So initial impressions from sites like yours are quite helpful in narrowing down what to seek out — so keep up the good work!
@contemplating
I am afraid I have not joined that fraternity of the sleepless bike racers but my tendency is toward endurance XC rides. I think the Tall Boy would make a fine 24 hour race bike.
I will not have the chance to try the Tall Boy with a 120mm fork but if would not be a huge hit to standover. Take any bike you ride now and stand over it. Then place the front wheel on something as high as the difference between a 100mm fork and a 120mm fork…around .75 inches…and then stand over the bike. Taa Daah. Not much difference really.
Full test impressions coming soon and then a comparison article against another ‘epic’ bike I have been riding. Hint, hint, wink, wink.
grannygear
Mikey Likes It!
Not saying the TallBoy is anything like my 1st Gen Niner RIP, which was designed around a 100mm fork, yet the folks I see around here riding in So Cal all run 120mm forks on them. Really, I think it would depend on your riding area, and how fast you ride most of the time, as well as style of riding. I doubt many would want to race with the added weight of the 120mm fork, but if the race is long and your mind is wandering or fading, a taller fork with tendencies to make the bike more forgiving of your mistakes in steering is a serious asset.
Anyways, Mike, The RandyBoy would like to try the TallBoy, for fit, at 6’5″, that XL would be interesting.
Small world, I used to see Mike Ferrentino posting on The NorCal Fly Fishing Board.org NCFFB, about SYRCL South Yuba, and fly fishing access there to the public for steelhead fishing, flooding, high water marks, The Marysville Floods, etc. I never knew the same guy heads up Santa Cruz Bicycles. Probably runs with the same crew, Forest Arakawa, Dave, etc.
Very interested in his interview.
Keep up the good work and honest reviews, Mike!
The Tallboy is my short list for the next bike.
I was up in the air between a hardtail or full suspension. I just knew I wanted a 29er. My current bike is a 30 lb. Chameleon. I thought two hardtails would be redundant even if one is a 26er and the other a 29er. To go along with the Chameleon, I don’t really see a downside to the Tallboy.
The big question for me is 100 or 120 mm fork? I’m not particularly a fast rider or do I have a need to go fast. But I do like to carve the singletrack. It’s why in the past I’ve given up on full suspension bikes for hardtails. I’m thinking the 100 would suit my riding style better.
Oh and the other question is black or orange. I didn’t really care for either till a saw a black one in the flesh the other day. Very sharp! I’m curious about the orange in real life.
I’m looking forward to the rest of the review / test. Keep up the good work.
Leon
randyboy, not bad on the sleuthwork there, but i think you are confusing me with my brother, Ric. he lives in nevada city and used to be pretty heavily involved with syrcl. as for what i do here, “heads up” might be a stretch. i prefer the term “cat-herd.”
derailment over. will have your questions answered this morning, granny!
“Take any bike you ride now and stand over it. Then place the front wheel on something as high as the difference between a 100mm fork and a 120mm fork…around .75 inches…and then stand over the bike. Taa Daah. Not much difference really.”
Heh, of course! I blame lack of sleep for my brain cramp.
“Full test impressions coming soon and then a comparison article against another ‘epic’ bike I have been riding. Hint, hint, wink, wink.”
If it’s what I think, my old knees aren’t ‘epic’ enough to push that 2×10 drivetrain up some of the hills around New England. So many of our trails are old hiking trails and just go straight up. And yes singlespeeders, I hear you laughing, I bow down to your insanit…uh, I mean superior fitness.
Am I the only person that thinks a suspension design shouldn’t require pro-pedal? Pro-pedal just seems like a band aid for a bad design. Let me know if my line of thinking is wrong here…..The only suspension system I’ve really ridden is Giant’s Maestro, on my ’06 Anthem. My particular shock didn’t have a platform setting, but you could lock it out. I never did.
@randyboy
I can’t imagine the XL fitting you properly but I know you like a smallish frame for your ‘frame’ so who knows. This bike is a very limited engagement so if ya wanna see the fit in person, better call me.
@mf
Cool beans on the Q@A
@leon d
The 100mm fork will not prevent you from going fast, that is for sure. A 120mm would likely add a bit of ‘depth’ to the overall feel of the bike IMO. It is the way I would run it for So Cal if this were my bike.
@contemplating
Yeah, a 26/36 only goes so far that way. As a sneak preview to later scribblings and ravings, if I was a ‘Back East’ rider and I lived in the land of rocky, rooty, twisty trails, I would nod to the Tall Boy with a 100mm fork. It turns really fast and the VPP will hook ya up!
@dman
Well, in the case of the Tall Boy. I don’t get the feeling that Propedal takes much away from the overall performance of the bike. Also, I am very sensitive to any pedal induced suspension motion and I do not need a bike to feel plush and uber sensitive…that is my preference. Even with PP on I thought the bike was still very active for techy climbing and fast trails although I did open it up for the really rough and long downhills. YMMV.
grannygear
Thanks for the reply grannygear.
I didn’t mention it but like contemplating, I’m a New England rider. If it’s not “rocky, rooty and twisty”, I must be on the road. This “turns really fast and the VPP will hook ya up” sounds to me like your version of what I call carving.
With the Fox fork, is there anyway to convert the 120 to a 100? Seems like that would solve a lot of problems.
I seriously cannot wait to hear your comparison between the two GG. I’m getting one of these bikes, I just cannot decide if I want more race or more trail. I’m ready to buy one right now, but I thought it’d be smart to wait for your review as I truly value your opinion (no pressure – ha!). We have very similar riding styles and preferences. The one I’m going for will be for endurance riding, but still being able to rip a technical downhill. I don’t need a lot of rear travel (no jumping here), but I stay seated on climbs except for short bursts and crests. –anxiously awaiting, thanks.
@A
Stay tuned. My article is already written. All good things come to those that wait. Thanks for the faith!
grannygear
LeonD “With the Fox fork, is there anyway to convert the 120 to a 100? Seems like that would solve a lot of problems.”
– Yes, a 120mm can be travel reduced to 100mm, it is about a 25 minute job if you’re good at playing with forks.
@LeonD & B
Yes that could be nice! Too bad Fox doesn’t have a Talas 29 (yet).
@ Leon
I’ve ordered my bike with the 120. The weight difference between the two is negligible. 3.96 lbs vs. 4.02 lbs with the 15QR (or about 28 grams). I think the added versatility is worth it, especially if you’re on the edge.
Ok gals&guys What about Tallboy LT- long Travel? Just like Blur and Blur LT. I thought that a 120-130mm rear travel of Tallboy would be more versatile just like FSR of yore had 80 or 100 and now it has 130mm with addition of one single mm in the chainstays. Why not making the same about Tallboy. Mike Ferrentino you’re reading it, aren’t you? Do your homework 😉 This is my pleading.
Oh, I forgot It MUST have a light maxle option 135×12 or 150x12mm don’t let us down.
@dc
That question was already asked to Mike Ferrentino….Tall Boy LT…by yours truly. Stay tuned for the answer.
grannygear
If I could get a convertible fork in 100-120mm and not pay a big penalty in the process, for the Tall Boy it would be the way to go IMO.
grannygear
Actually riders would appreciate two options 120mm and 140mm for 44 Marzocchi both with 12×135 and 150mm options or at least the carbon 140mm. The next would be carbon Nomad, why the heck not? Intense uses 153mm rear wheel travel on Tracer 29er. Santa Cruz go for it, surprise us.
@dman: suspension may or may not need propedal depending on how it was designed to work and how you want it to work. The only way to avoid the propedal is to use chain torque to offset the effects of your weight pushing on the suspension with each pedal stroke. If you are using the chain to do this then you WILL get pedal kickback when pedaling over bumps. So it is a trade off, pedal kickback or bob, of course this comes in degrees so YMMV. It is interesting to note that Santa Cruz has admitted to dialing back the influence of chain torque on the suspension in its latest iteration of VPP to correct the kickback issue. I find this quite entertaining because VPP was initially sold as being the bob panacea BECAUSE it used chain torque to eliminate it. But now they have “improved” the design by removing the main selling point of the first gen version.
The other way around the bob issue is just getting a properly valved/shimmed shock to begin with that has more compression damping without the propedal on, giving you the illusion that the linkage is somehow more efficient. Of course getting the shock valved right on a stock bike is a major roll of the dice (if the bike manufacturer even makes a real attempt at it) due to different rider weights, different fork setups, and different geometries across the size range.
Just like in life there is no free lunch in the world of suspension, its just a matter of minimizing the downsides as much as possible. Anyone who tells you otherwise is… wait for it… selling you something!
Many seem to assume there is one suspension setting for all. I feel that the first iteration of the Mach 429 was perfect for me, although quite a few complained it was too firm. Team members on a race team be it Formula 1 or XC will set up the suspension each of their liking. Just because I feel the TB is slightly too plush does not mean that others will. Besides I’m not complaining. It is sinfully cushy and it is leaps and bounds better than my old Blur.
If it’s “too soft” add more air to the shock. That’s the whole point of an air shock right? It’s adjustable for different people.
@shop mechanic
I agree that there is no, one, perfect suspension despite the claims. You pick the one that works best for you and tweak it to be as good as it can be. Then you ride happy.
http://vintageone.blogspot.com/2010/02/short-links-hot-links.html
grannygear
To extract better performance as far as pedaling efficiency is not as simple as just adding more air although it does work to a degree. In my experience, doing so makes the rate too progressive. I could then adjust the rebound, but now I have a springy, jittery ride or a dead wooden feeling with less available travel. With the Mach 429 I just set the sag, tweaked the rebound and it was dialed for me. I’m not dissing the TB. I’m actually going to sell the 429 and keep my El Rey and TB.
shopmechanic –
“I find this quite entertaining because VPP was initially sold as being the bob panacea BECAUSE it used chain torque to eliminate it. But now they have “improved” the design by removing the main selling point of the first gen version.”
actually, the chain torque and instant center migration characteristics of VPP suspension didn’t change too much from gen 1 to gen 2. there is less chain growth now than there was before, we did this in an effort to reduce pedal kickback. and we changed the instant center migration path to provide less anti-squat characteristic. these were done to increase overall pedaling efficiency. but chain torque still plays a role in influencing the suspension to control bob, and we still employ a falling to rising shock rate, albeit a slightly milder curve in most cases than previously. please note: shock rate and instant center migration are not the same thing. as marketing stooge i do a bad job of explaining it all. our engineers do better:
http://www.santacruzbicycles.com/tech/index.php?JoesCorner=1
there’s some good, frank talk about suspension theory in there, along with a debunking of the “s-shaped axle path” notion that we ourselves perpetuated. it was an attempt to oversimplify and market some relatively esoteric principles, and it was a mistake. it still read better in an ad than “manipulation of instant center migration to create anti squat characteristics in some gears while minimizing chain growth to a generally acceptable level and concurrently furnishing a falling to rising shock rate that… blahblahblah” most people’s eyes roll back in their heads after about four words when it comes to reading ads. hence bold headlines and lots of acronyms.
@mf
Thanks for taking the time to chime in.
grannygear
Uhh, so ProPedal good?
@mf–Everything I want to write to commend you seems to read sarcastically so I will try to just put it as simply as I can; my respect for you and Santa Cruz has grown immensely as a result of your post. I don’t know that I have ever seen that kind of honesty about a product someone was selling from anyone in the industry in the fifteen + years I have been working in it. Well done my friend, well done.
BTW, in my original post I admit that I was exaggerating when I described the new VPP as having removed chain torque from the suspension equation. I do realize that it was simply reduced but my point (and now officially Santa Cruz’s) still stands. Sorry if my original post was at all misleading on this issue.
@shop mechanic
Kudos.
grannygear
@Grannygear You mentioned your demo bike is an XL. How tall are you and what is your inseam? I’m 6′ with a 34″ true inseam and overly long arms relative to my height. On my last two bikes I have resorted to longish (>= 130mm) stems and setback seatposts to prevent feeling cramped. Looking at the geometry on the Tallboy I’m seriously thinking about an XL.
Anyhow, any thoughts about fit for this particular bike from you or anyone else out there is appreciated.
/me again curses living in an area where a demo of high end MTBs is often impossible.
@contemplating
I am 6’2″, 34″ inseam and longish arms. The XL is a dead on fit with the approx 100mm stem on it….I have not measured. The 25″ TT is ample for me. It is a straight up seat post and it has me where I want to be over the cranks.
grannygear