Let me tell you a little tale of a 27.5 Plus bike rider who began to pine a bit for the good old days of 29ers. He was ready to get back to the wheels and tires he knew and loved. He was ready to get back to what he believed would be a faster rolling bike for bigger days. He was not done with Plus though. Quite the contrary. But he was ready for what he remembered it being like on a true 29″ wheel and normal tire. But he also a bit in doubt of himself. Was this all romance and puffery? Were the good old days really that good?
Once upon a time….
It had been quite a few months since I had ridden anything off road besides a 27.5 Plus tire. I had begun to wonder, “Would I be faster on a somewhat lighter and somewhat lesser travel 29er?” There were rides in my head that I really did not see as fit for the 6 Fattie, mostly bigger loops with sections of smoother fireroad and even some pavement. That is likely true. The 6 Fattie is hardly anything other than a true trailbike.
So I began to fantasize a bit about how I needed another bike to fill that gap. A 29er of course. Full suspension, but not too much of it. Maybe a bit lighter. But slack too, not too racy. A faster, capable climber. My mind was feeding my imagination on how it would be better than the 6 Fattie…faster on the rolling dirt roads we have here and sharper on the trails too. I could keep the27.5 Plus 6 Fattie for heavier trail days and exploring rides, etc. Yep. Good plan. So I began some virtual shopping with a short list of suspects and I started riding what models I could to rekindle the flame of that old romance.
I got a quick spin on the Niner JET9 in the new guise. Pass on that. There was the Santa Cruz Tall Boy 3 but finding one in my size was hard to do and a recent Factory Demo close to me was a complete bust…never got on a bike. The whole Demo Truck experience needs to be rethought but that is another thing entirely.
One bike that kept coming up was the Pivot 429 series: The Trail and the SL. Reviews were glowing. I was intrigued. So when Pivot came around with the Demo truck I had a chance to ride both a 429 Trail and a 429 SL on my home trails. Yay! I would be once again on a 29er which would undoubtedly feel faster on the smoother roads and maybe even sharper and quicker on the trail sections too. It looks like I will have to apply for a new credit card to pay for it.
Pedaling out on the Pivot 429 Trail, a bike with similar geometry to the 27.5 Plus 6 Fattie but with a bit less travel F/R, and at just a slightly lesser weight, I was ready to be impressed. DW link. All carbon. Light wheels. Top end bike.
I rode up a nearly flat dirt road with some sand and light rocks on it. I was expecting it to match my imagination and you know what? Not really. Nope. Now I am not a human Strava machine but I would bet my soiled chamois that I was not one bit faster on that bike over the 6 Fattie. Huh! With my imagined expectations in a tailspin, I turned to some tight and twisty singletrack. It was really fun on that 429 Trail, it being a bit sharper handling perhaps, but also rougher riding too. Bumpier for sure. Well…so I gained hardly anything over the 6 Fattie but lost some too. It was not nearly enough gain for what I would spend to get there.
So I was thinking maybe I was on the wrong bike. Let’s try the lighter, faster 429 SL XC bike instead. Maybe I was just barking up the wrong 29″ tall tree? Now then, the SL was fast feeling for sure. Very nice. Stiffer frame too, over the Trail 429. But the steeper angles and overall vibe is not what I would put up with. Nope. I am too used to slacker front/shorter rear/shorter stem bikes now. Not going backward.
So there I was. My expectations were not met and the credit card plan was put away. Could there be some improvements over the 6 Fattie in some existing bike, like the Santa Cruz TB3 with Plus tires? Quite possibly. But notice the “Plus tires” part?
The next ride out on the 6 Fattie confirmed my feelings. I could not see a good enough reason to go back to 29×2.3 tires on any trail bike, especially at the cost I was considering. If somebody gave me one? Sure. But if I am writing the check?
Romance is not all it used to be.
I have been cycling off road long enough now to have seen three revolutionary changes and lots of more subtle evolutionary changes. The three biggies that I am singling out are, IMO, what made and are now making the biggest differences in how we ride bikes off-road.
- Suspension
- 29″ wheels and tires
- Plus wheels and tires
I remember being at Mammoth Mountain in the late 80s, IIRC, or maaaybe the very early 90s, and seeing Paul Turner at the NORBA Worlds which were being held there. He encouraged riders astride his new front suspension fork to ride into a small curb and not pull up the front end. ‘Ba—looop’! Big ‘aha’ moment.
I remember my first ride on a steel 29er, a singlespeed in this case, how even on that poorly handling beast of a bike the 29″ wheels were like rolling marvels of momentum and traction. Another ‘aha’ moment.
Then there was my first experience on a 27.5 Plus bike at Park City, Utah, courtesy of Scott Bikes. Third ‘aha’ moment.
Each one of those things were real game changers, even if it did take quite a long time to get both suspension and 29″ wheels dialed in and refined to where they are today. I think suspension is the king of the heap in the biggest thing ever for MTBs, but we were all blissfully ignorant to be riding on those tiny little 26″ wheels until 29ers came along bringing big improvements in traction, cornering, and overall roll-a-bility, especially for larger/taller riders. Unless you were really tiny or a downhill maniac, you were very likely shopping for a 29er as the next bike.
And that is where Plus has us now. The poofy, sort-of fat tires are real game changers and I bet a whole lot of folks are once again asking that question about what their next bike should be and, more specifically, should it be Plus? Of course the answer to that is much like the ‘Should I buy a 29er or not?” question. The answer is, maybe. I mean not everyone liked 29ers and that is OK. When normal 27.5 came out I was totally underwhelmed by it, but it was, for many, the sweet middle ground they were looking for.
And Plus will be the same way. You will need to try it and see. For me and for the terrain I ride in, it is much like the 29″ wheel in that there are and will always be some drawbacks to it. And I know it will be evolving and being refined as things progress. But the benefits are outweighing the drawbacks enough that I am no longer shopping for another trail bike with big wheels, although I do think something like the Tall Boy 3 with 2.8″ Plus tires would be an amazing bike for where I live.
What would I be looking for if anything were to fill that gap I am seeing in the quiver? Well, I would like to give 29+ another shot as a hardtail for bikepacking and such. Maybe something in Ti to keep the weight down and the ride quality up. And I could always run pure 29er tires on it too. Not sure though, and right now nothing on the market interests me. We shall see.
In regards to the 6 Fattie I do have some closing thoughts on a bike that I very much enjoy riding.
- All the parts are working fine…brakes, dropper post, fork, etc. With the bar/stem changes I made for fit and the chi-chi carbon Roval wheels, it’s a peach really. I cannot imagine any true trail ride where I would not grab the 6 Fattie without hesitation.
- I have reduced the pedal strikes by slowly adjusting the SAG in the rear shock to less and less, likely at 25% now, at the most. This is not what many riders would accept as it is likely beginning to encroach on the rear suspension travel, but it is fine for me. I still would like to see the BB up a bit but it is no longer carrying the dread factor it once was.
- I do wish it was shorter in wheelbase. I know that it is just a result of all the dimensions, but I do see why Ibis bikes touts the shorter bikes approach. Once you get over 1200mms in wheel span, it just begins to subtly change things. However I would not want a shorter TT length as the 65mm stem is just right. So the only thing left are the seat tube angle and headtube angle, along with fork offset to make that number shrink. I wonder how the bike would be with a 1/2 degree HT angle change to just a bit steeper, but only in the XL frame? Disaster? Magic number result? Dunno and I am not likely to find out either. But the edge of the knife gets slightly duller once the wheelbase crosses 1200mm, or at least that has been my experience in the new genre of trailbikes like the 6 Fattie.
Other than that, I am pretty happy with it for now and that is where I leave it. What might change my mind? How about 29×2.8″ Or 29×2.6″ What would that be like? Would that be an even better middle ground? We may never know.
Note: The products shown here were purchased at a discount to Twenty Nine Inches for test and review. We are not being paid, nor bribed for these reviews and we will strive to give our honest thoughts and opinions throughout.
What didnt you like about the new Jet 9 RDO? Those are on my radar for another bike.
@Ryan…the JET9s I rode set me back behind the BB too far with that acutely angled seat tube. That was one of my peeves with the RIP 9 RDO I reviewed some time ago. I dunno…it just did not ‘ring my bell’ although don’t put too much weight on this…hardly any kind of a review…more a quick impression but not a favorable one. Maybe it was the set up.
I know people that love them.
Although I do think they are quite possibly the ugliest thing out there, the new versions of the JET and RIP. Even more so than the Pivot stuff.
gg
And twentysevenpointfiveplusinches.com is born… 🙂
I demoed an ibis mojo 3 plus size and that thing was awesome. My first ride on a 27.5+ bike. I would have bought one on the spot, if I could have.
Totally agree about the Niners. I demoed these and never felt comfortable.
Just a quick question: Did you try the 429 Trail with the Plus tire option? It clears 2.8″ just fine (3″ front) and felt really good to me when I had a chance to Demo one. tires make such a huge difference on the Plus bikes as well – Schwalbe Nobby Nics run along fine and roll OK – but a Maxxis Rekon? Holy shit that tire zooms along and still sticks! Felt faster than my 29″ with 2.3 XR4’s on it. While I can get my head around the fact that it might not really ride that much faster than your 6Fattie, I was just wondering what other set-ups you had tried on a shorter-travel Plus bike. My next scooter will be either the 429Tr or a Scott Genius Plus (140mm Fr/130mm Rr)
@Jeff…I have my eye on the Mojo 3. I do wish it had a 3.0″ option even though 2.8″ is likely the future. That frame cost is up there though. Still….sweet bike and the WB is shorter in the XL over the 6 fattie. I have not ridden one but I have a buddy that LOVES his. I think when this all began that I was not ready to spend that much just to see if I would like Plus. In retrospect, I would write the check.
@ATB Scott…No it was in the 29er mode. I was thinking 29er only, not “another Plus bike”. Frankly, for the money, the 429 Trail in Plus guise would be so close to the 6 Fattie in overall-ness that it would be silly having both of them. You know?
No other shorter travel Plus bikes. I think I would really like the TB3+ and the Scott Spark + as well. Note the longer back end/less reach/older suspension set-up on the Genius Plus as compared to the new Spark. Just something to consider. The Genius is due for an update I bet in 2017/18.
gg
I converted my hardtail with Bluto Fatbike to a Plusbike using 29xi35mm (i = inner width) rims and ~900 gm tires, a fairly light Plus wheelset, about a year ago. My regular full-suspesion x-c 29er has only been ridden twice since. That’s how much I dig my Plusbike.
I think the next place for PLusbikes to go would be full-suspension 29er Plusbikes. I would love for for someone to do a review on a full-suspension Farley EX Fatbike set up with a light 29er Plus wheelset. 29er Plusbikes are just not as developed as 27er Plusbikes. Rock Shox only just came out with a dedicated 29er Plus fork and Fox still has not. There are no full-suspension 29er Plusbikes on the market.
No matter what wheel size (26/27.5/29), I believe that all Plusbikes should be designed with bottom bracket heights tall enough that 2.3″ to 2.4″ wide tires mounted to an i29mm to i35mm rims would be do-able. First, it would be great to have the versatility to use tires from 2.3″ to 3.2″ wide on the same bike. Use 2.3″ slick light tires and go to the races. Use 3.2″ heavily knobbed tires and ride in the snow. Instead of having different sized (26/27.5/29) wheel sets, just mount up different width tires. Second, all tires from the narrowest to the widest benefit from “boosted” wider hubs. Third, increasing tire width does not increase bottom bracket height as much as you think. As tires get wider that air pressure is set lower. The inherent tire sag/suspension of a Plusbike tire therefore requires a higher bottom bracket. I have read many Plusbike reviews that complain of frequent pedal strikes. I think that Plusbike designers have not adequately considered the affect of the softer wider Plus tires on bottom bracket height and pedal strikes.
So, what do I want my next bike to be? A full-suspension 29er Plusbike with i32mm rims(the widest rim that 2.3″ wide tires can be reasonably mounted to) with a bottom bracket high enough for the before mentioned rim/tire combo with enough tire clearance for a 3.2″ wide tire!!!! That would be one versatile, capable mountain bike!!!
@Mark….Taa Daaahhhh!!!! http://lenzsport.com/mountain-bikes/fat-moth/
@Grannygear – Thanks for the heads-up. I checked that site and I thought the bikes looked great. How about you get Lenzsport to loan you one with a light wheelset and give us a review?! As you can tell I prefer the tall wheel 29+. I really appreciate your reviews of Plusbikes because Plusbikes are so new and we are all trying to figure out what works and what the potential is for this new species. Thanks!!!!
Thanks for your in-depth feedback regarding your experience with 27.5+. I have recently been evaluating plus bikes with my standard riding partner and I keep thinking that the Santa Cruz Hightower 27.5 plus is really the answer to your question. We rode it back-to-back with the Stumpjumper 6fattie, and the Hightower had much better pedaling response and was objectively faster up the climbs. I’m a huge Specialized fan ( I currently own a Camber Evo and raced Epics for years), but the Hightower is almost race-bike fast, while giving you the comfort and confidence of 135 mm of travel. We both thought the 6 Fattie would be the winner, but the Hightower was more fun and dynamic for all rides other than shuttle runs. Just thought I’d pass along my thoughts–I completely agree with you regarding the benefits of plus tires. We have also definitely noticed that there’s really almost zero penalty in terms of rolling speed for having the wider tire. Thanks!
@Jake…yes, you may be right. That bike was not on my radar at the time but it should have been. I really think I will not make any moves until I see Gen 2 or maybe even Gen 3 of Plus suspension bikes. I do like the 6 fattie very much, but I would like to see what they do with it in the next iteration.
gg
The plus size attempts I’ve made out here in the desert southwest have all had one thing in common, and unfortunately it’s been walking back to the demo vans with one or more flat tire that I couldn’t fix trailside, which has been three efforts so far. I got the farthest on the 2.8 Rekon equipped Pipeline, which was surprisingly quick climbing everywhere (albeit at 21/24psi), but I didn’t feel appreciably more traction than running 2.3 minions on any of the test loop. Was a total hoot, and it got through a couple of light rock gardens before I caught a lone sharp rock in the center of the tread – lost enough air that trying to get it stopped into the next rock outcrop had me bashing the rim and chewing up that poor tire. I’ve had comparable survivability out of 2.35 Ikons for all mountain use on the same trails, so the 200g weight premium for 8mm of tread width just isn’t that appealing to me.
I just can’t get away from the feeling that the extra plus tire grip was more noticeable at low speed and the tighter technical stuff. Where I personally have fun is pushing the limits on mixtures of flowy and chunky sections at high speed, and that’s really where the drawbacks of the current tires are at.
Still, experiencing the grip possible with mid-fat setups and wider rims had me look more into beefier 29er setups (30mm iw rims and Maxxis WT Minions), and moving to tires with softer rubber and bigger knobs has been hugely beneficial, so I’m really happy with wider minions, and until 29×2.8 DHR2/Butcher and 29×2.6 MinionSS/Slaughter tires come out, I’ll be happier with what I have.
@Tellhama…I think your perspective is pretty right on. First off, Maxxis Plus tires seem to have a rep for being barely 2.6 anyway, so the footprint gain from a 2.3 Minion on a wider rim is likely not worth the step down in toughness for your style of riding and priorities.
It will be interesting to see if Enduro and DH moves to Plus, but I don’t see that happening until casings get way tougher and maybe even altogether different in construction over normal tires. And they will be heavy, unless there are rabbits in hats somewhere.
I don’t ride like you do…aggressively over gnar, but if I did, I would likely be killing Plus tires too.
I still ask this…”whatever happened to 2.6/2.7″ 29er tires?” Skipped right past them.
gg
GG,
Based on your last post, maybe try the NN 2.6 x 29er tires on a wider 29er rim(like the Ibis 942) on your STJ FS 27.5+ bike
Might be just right
Salsa just came out with a full suspension 29+ called the Deadwood SUS. Would love to see a review of that bike!
Great article. I have a question about the Roval Fattie Carbon wheelset. I feel that I want to move on a 27.5 Plus hardtail. Currently I own a Cube hardtail carbon frame and it is pretty quick bike BUT it has a harsh ride. So I thought that getting a light hardtail frame and light as possible 27.5 Plus wheelset would be a best compromise in terms of weight and rolling resistance and get more comfort at the same time. So to go back to my question do you think that the biggest performance benefit would be to invest in lighter carbon Plus wheelset vs midweight alloy Plus wheelset? Do you think that this is the place (rims and tires) where I should try to keep the weight gain as low as possible? Thank you.
@Stefanroussev…I cannot imagine a better place to improve the response of a Plus bike than in the rolling stock. A heavy Plus bike wheel can be really heavy…ditto for the tires. Now if you are just bikepacking on a loaded sled, then a wider rim and heavier (stouter) tire is a good idea and the loss of response is way less important on a packed up bike. You are just gonna’ sit and crank along anyway unless you are racing something like the Colorado Trail.
Interestingly enough, I am in the process of putting together a faster Plus hardtail for myself for general nuisance-ry and bikepacking. Ti most likely. The Fuse I have is just a bit small for me and aluminum is never my first choice in a hardtail frame.
And I have been thinking about a wheel build and actually adding up weights of the components, spokes, etc. The Rovals are really hard to beat for the money. I don’t think that I need a wider rim, although that 38mm version is tempting. If you plan on running the tires at sub 15psi or are really a big guy, then bump up the rim width a bit.
I do wish the TCS WTB tires would fit the Rovals though. I would like to run the Rangers on something like an all day hardtail bike. The Speshy tires are great for the 6fattie though.
gg
@GG
What about the carbon Fuse? Seems to hit all the check marks for what you’re looking for (and fixes some of the weaknesses you saw in the aluminum version). I’m seriously thinking of the S-Works version. By the way, I think I’m a similar size to you (though you seemed happy on the XL aluminum Epic, and I happily had a Large), what size aluminum Fuse were you on? I’m thinking a large is the right size for me, but that might just be my fear of getting a bike that’s too big.
@GG
Thank you for the response. I am looking for a all around bike but needs to be fairly efficient because i have a ritual to ride White Rim at least once a year for a day and I just need efficient but a touch more comfortable bike. I am around 180-185 lbs, 5 foot 9″ tall. I am looking at Scott Scale Plus hardtail frame which is aluminum but is a little over 1500 grams light and according to ‘Bikeradar’ comfy frame especially for alloy. I am on limited budget so I thought that investing in the wheels is where i should focus. Would you make a difference in feel between alloy or else on a plus shod hardtail in terms of comfort?
On another subject. I am working on a project that affords me to change the incline (tilt on the longitudinal axis) on my seat WHILE I am riding. Not a dropper. Imagine a steep climb 10%-15% grade and the whole bike tilts just as much as well is the seat too. Now your seat is going to be pointing up (10%-15% or whatever the grade of the climb is) relatively to water level, therefore you are forced to sit on a tipped seat and start sliding back at some point. So I designed a seat that tilts up and down so I can keep my seat relatively flat in relation to water level and on the steep climbs i ride more relaxed on the seat because I can tilt it down to compensate for the incline and sit on flat surface without me trying to hold tight on the handlebars to keep me from sliding backwards (handlebar pull-ups) therefore I spent less energy plus is a whole lot more comfortable just for sitting on a flat surface. What do you think, have you ever thought about such an improvement? Thank you.
I am a recent convert to plus bikes and still decidedly in the minority amongst the mostly 29er crowd I ride with here in Australia so I often question why I am riding one of these machines. None of the many articles I have previously read come close to explaining the attraction of Plus tyres (and bikes) like your recent articles. There is something about them that I found hard to articulate to my doubting friends but in your last post (and this one), you nailed it. I too have gone back to my standard 29er and decided it is superior on XC trails but when I load up that plus bike to go on a ride suiting its capabilities my heart sings. Thanks for the great posts!