Sea Otter sees lots of new introductions and this year is no exception. Our on the spot reporter, Grannygear, will have a lot of work cut out for him, no doubt. I was fortunate enough to take a bit of the burden off his shoulders when an opportunity came up last week to meet up with Salsa Cycle’s Jason Boucher and take a look at the third generation steel El Mariachi.
Guitar Ted with the new version of the steel El Mariachi in St. Paul, Minnesota last week.
The new El Mariachi still does what the old versions did. Steel, geared, or single speed. However; one big change was made that is readily apparent. The move from an eccentric bottom bracket to a “swinging drop out”. This gets away from the opposition some folks have to eccentric bottom brackets and moves to a simple, unique tensioning system that has passed Salsa’s scrutiny with flying colors so far.
Simple but effective: The new swinging drop out on the El Mariachi 29″er.
Notice that the “Alternator” swinging drop out design Salsa is employing is quite simple. One “pivot” bolt, one adjusting nut, and one large fixing bolt are all the hardware that Salsa is using to secure and adjust the large aluminum plate drop out with. The “strut” across the seat stay and chain stay is a nicely forged bit with cut outs, the slots for adjusting the drop out, and features a stamped “pepper world” logo. The drop out has 17mm of adjustment to accommodate single speed use. You can also use this to lengthen or shorten your wheelbase in geared set ups. The prototype El Mariachi I rode was set up as a 1 X 9and the drop out was as far forward as you could make it for the shortest possible chain stay length. Adjustments to the drop out are accomplished by simply loosening the main fixing bolt and adjusting the drop out using the rearward facing adjuster bolt on each drop out. Then tighten the fixing bolt and you are off. Here are the bullet points on the Alternator Drop Out:
- Geared or singlespeed
- Quick and easy chain tension adjustments
- 17mm adjustment range
- Adjustable dropout serves as a replaceable derailleur hanger
- All threads are in the adjustable and replaceable dropout so if you strip something out no harm is done to the expensive part of your frame
Of course, there is more going on here than just the swinging drop out. Salsa Cycles is now designing their own steel tubing and having it made to their specifications. Called “Kung Fu Tubing”, the new tubing features multiple butting profiles. I found that the ride was very similar to the El Mariachis of old. Springy to a degree, but with a definite bent to the stiffer side than some other steel tube sets used on 29′ers. That’s a good thing for handling, as I did not detect any untoward wobbles or twists in the front triangle. Another thing that benefits from this stiffness is out of the saddle climbing, where yanking on the handle bars does not result in much, if any, twist in the front end. This should be a great single speed rig! Here are the salient features of the “Kung Fu Tubing”:
Kung Fu Tubing Designed in house by kung fu master Peter Koski
- New proprietary triple-butted Japanese Sanko seamless steel tubing
- Design based on Salsa’s 20+ year experience with working with steel tubing
- Custom butting profiles put material where it should be resulting in a doubling of fatigue life compared to a standard butted tube
The overall handling of the bike was neutral to slightly slack feeling. This prototype was set up with a Rock Shox Reba. Climbing real steep stuff brought out the slightest wandering in the front end, but otherwise it was a calm climber. Fast turns were a hoot, and tighter stuff was fine, albeit not into the “quick” handling arena. With the shortest chain stay setting, I was able to loft up the front end at will and get aired out, which is definitely not my forte’. So those who like a playful bike should really enjoy the new El Mariachi. The trails where I rode this bike were made up of single track with dirt, sandy dirt, gravel here and there, with many long-ish climbs and fast, technical descents. The new El Mariachi just disappeared underneath me, which is to say that I became accustomed to it right out of the gate and felt confident in its handling.
The New El Mariachi Brothers: Titanium on the left, steel on the right.
As far as the look of the frame, the arrangement at the drop out catches your eye immediately. The blue color is pleasing, (in my opinion) and the “woodcut” graphics by Andy Wood, (panels on the down tube and seat tube), are subtle enough to not be overbearing, yet they do a good job of alluding to Salsa’s new “Adventure By Bike” marketing campaign. Otherwise it has a workman-like look to it and should appeal to those tired of the “billboard” graphics on some other 29″ers out there. Cable routing for the geared set up is on the underside of the down tube. Rear brake routing is underneath the top tube to the left side/ 7 o’clock position and down the left seat stay.
Salsa Cycles will be selling the El Mariachi steel rig as a frame only for MSRP $599.00 USD, and a painted to match Salsa CroMoto fork will set you back an additional $110.00 USD. Salsa Cycles is reporting that the availability of this new generation El Mariachi will be in late June. Salsa Cycles: http://www.salsacycles.com
Thanks to Jason Boucher of Salsa Cycles for the image at the top of this post and for offering the ride last week.
Wow! There’s a lot to be excited about with this news release. Unfortunately, I won’t be buying any more bikes for a little while, but this is definitely worth admiring. I like the drop out arrangement. It’s very similar and possibly identical (minus the logo) to the “Black Cat” version. It should make for a versatile frame (SS v. 1 x something).
Any news on a complete bike and how Salsa would outfit it?
The custom tubing is a nice touch. Sanko makes a wide – wide range of products all over the world. I wouldn’t mind knowing a little more about it’s composition for a welder’s point of view.
very nice! I really like, and applaud the use of the swinger style drop out as well. Super sane, effective way of gaining chain tension. Much better than sliders, and arguably as nice as EBB’s[which I am completely sold on].
A good looking rig indeed. A few questions:
- tire clearance – notice anything that might limit what tire goes out back?
- Is there a cable stop for a FD cable? Seems like a little thing that would make the bike that much more versatile.
-Speaking of cable stops – is that a removeable stop for the RD cable on the chainstay?
-Any idea on the weight?
Yeah, very cool! Someday hope to throw a leg over one, and then bring it home to live with my Fargo and Selma. One happy family….until the next one comes along.
@dman: Tire clearance looked at least as good as the previous El Mariachis I have seen, so that bodes well for fatties in the back.
Yes, as mentioned, the cable routing is downtube routed. (See next answer)
No, these cable stops on the prototype were removable, but production models will be brazed on.
The bike I rode was a 1 X 9 as mentioned, and it probably was in the 24-25lb category as built, so no miraculously light steel alloys have been discovered or used here.
That’s just a guess though.
Question about the steel- is it air-hardened like the OX was? What would be a comparable tubeset just for a ‘frame’ of reference?
Overall I like the bike. I’d opt for the color of the Ala Carte over the Bomb Pop Blue and it all looks good but….and this is probably a stupid point, but the decals really look bad on the website where there are close ups. Did they look okay in person? On the web site it looked like a little kid got loose with a medium point sharpie and set to drawing squiggles and they became decals. I’ve always thought the decals were kind of an added touch to Salsa products, something sort of neat in the way they did things.
WKilburg: I didn’t think they were terrible, but honestly, the fact that they are a big departure from what we all expect from Salsa may be what is the rub here. Typically Salsa has had that flashy, Rastafarian tinged, look. Over the top paint jobs were common way back when. (Peppers, sponge jobs, and other wild oddities) Recently Salsa has toned the graphics way down, and now they have gone over to the new “Adventure By Bike” deal, which is bringing with it a whole new feel and look for the brand. That is intentional too.
It certainly won’t be for everybody, and it will rattle those that have been fans of the recent past in terms of Salsa Cycles. Personally I like blue bikes, so it resonates with me that way. The decals? Meh……I guess they aren’t that big of a deal to me. I thought that they weren’t too overt, so I give them a passing grade. But that’s just me.
You know, I gotta ask: Did they actually license that dropout from Black Cat? If they did, then kudos for supporting the solo visionaries in the handmade bike market. If not, it would be the most blatant rip-off ever.
@chuckc1971: The drop out Salsa is using tensions from the opposite end from Black Cat’s. Simililar? Yes. Exact “ripoff”, hardly. If this were the case Paragon would be cleaning up big time on all the “copies” of its sliding drops out there.
If anything it is bringing a lot of attention to Black Cat bikes for free that the custom builder would not be getting otherwise. In fact, if anyone cares to check it out, here ya go: http://www.blackcatbicycles.com/
Will this hurt Black Cat? I seriously doubt it. In fact, my bet is it will do just the opposite.
It also appears that the Salsa drop outs pivot around the upper disk mounting hole like on the trek superfly SS where as the BC does not.
@GuitarTed: Maybe what you say is true about drawing attn to BlackCat, but if I compare the pic above with one of many from Blackcat, looks identical to me no matter which side the bolt is on:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_qgZrS4HnBeg/S6Beh00JxNI/AAAAAAAAAno/3tRyrHeffD8/s1600-h/015.JPG
Maybe, Todd and Salsa are both happy about this, but at NAHBS 2009, I was discussing the BC swingers with the EWR guys and they indicated Todd would not budge on licensing his dropouts to them.
When Titec wanted to make an Al Jones bar, they were very happy to associate it with Jones. I just think Salsa should have done the same with Black Cat. It would have greatly improved Salsa’s credibility with bike geeks like me.
Love the new El Mar – not so keen on the blue. Like the green of the Ala Carte better. Will they be offering the El Mar in other colours?
Coupled with a new Woodchipper bar and rigid fork, this bike could be a real do-all bike… off road fun, killer commuter….
Question:
In the frostbike coverage it was mentioned that:
“a running change will be made to all Salsa frames with replaceable drop out hangars, and frames that will be carried into the future will be fitted with replaceable drop outs, (think: Fargo, the future steel El Mariachi), and these replaceable drop outs will all be the same. No matter what Salsa Cycles frame you get in the future, if it has a replaceable drop out, it will be the same drop out insert used for all Salsa Cycles frames.”
From the way I read this, it seems like this same style dropout may appear on the Fargo in the near future. Would this be an outlandish assumption?
Thanks,
-Palek
Palek – I think there is a mis-interpretation of what was said with the replaceable der hanger thing. What was meant from Salsa is that if it is a normal, vertical dropout with a replaceable hanger, future models will all use the same hanger to standardize and make sure that there are not a huge amount of hangers out there. The first bikes to get the new hanger are the Ti models.
However, bikes that use replaceable dropouts for various reasons such as the Alternator for chain tension, or something that may allow the use of Maxles would not be the same. Does that make sense? So Salsa may have 2-3 different types of dropouts, but for the standard verticals with a hanger, we hope to only use one standard hanger going forward.
Ride and Smile!
Tim, Salsa Cycles
Tim,
Thanks for the response. I suppose it was more wishful thinking on my part that the Fargo would get the single speed option.
I understand that the redesign would be substantial in order for the fargo to accomodate the Alternator dropout.
In either case, the move to replaceable derailleur hangers in any form is a good one in my opinion.
Keep up the good work,
-Palek
Has anybody else looked at the chainstay length on the El Mar. Seems too long to me. 17.51-18.18″ seems outlandishly long. To me, this chainstay length would in no way, shape, or form, result in a bike that feels “playful”. Even at the shortest “setting”, these chainstays are longer than what you get on a Fisher. Am I missing something here??? To each his own I guess.
@Swede It: Well, keep in mind that my impressions were from riding the bike in the shortest setting, (17.51) and my first generation El Mariachi sitting not ten feet away from me as I type this has 17 13/16ths chain stay length as a single speed with the BB in the center/upper position. It doesn’t feel as “playful” as the new bike does. I stand by my impressions. You will have to judge for yourself once you have actually ridden it.
What was the travel on those Reba’s you guys were riding on the EL Mar ti and cro-mo? Here in New England, 100mm has been optimum. Sweet looking bikes.
@Chsad: Both bikes had 100mm forks on them.
I forwarded this blog entry to Todd of Black Cat Bikes and this was his response:
“first i’ve heard of/ seen it. no licensing payments, i would have noticed that.
well hopefully they didn’t use the brake mounting hardware, like fisher did, as the pivot bolt. it’ll slip backward on the disc side if the caliper is higher than the pivot. that means anything over a 5″ rotor will give you trouble (like the fishers). can’t tell by the pic if that is the case, although someone mentioned it.
imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, i guess.
cheers,
todd”
Salsa site is updated with new pics. Here’s a good shot of the dropout:
http://salsacycles.com/files/bikes/FM8526-03.jpg
Does anyone know the weight of the new frame? should be lighter than the old one because ot the missing ebb … or am I wrong?
Correct me if I’m wrong, and I know this is an old thread, but tearing salsa apart for taking a good idea like the black cat dropouts and in their eyes improving it would be like everyone ripping on people using bb30, or tapered steerer tubes on road bikes and not licensing them with Cannondale… As far as i know they were the first to do that, and some companies have gladly stated they were using ‘dale technology (ie lynskey and Indy fab) while others have neglected to mention anything about where they got the technology (eg specialized (BBs and steerers) and trek (steerers)). Granted the latter two have gone about it in (slightly) different ways, but the original ideas did come from Bedford’s aluminum wizards. I can’t wait to get my hands on a new El Mar… it will get gravel and adventure duty. Just wish I could get an Enabler painted to match…