Santa Cruz’s Tall Boy vs Specialized’s Epic Marathon 29″er
March 11th, 2010 by Guitar TedEditor’s Note: Since Grannygear had both the Epic Marathon 29″er for review and the Santa Cruz Tall Boy, we thought it might be interesting or our readers to have Grannygear give his take on the two rigs head to head.
I rode the Santa Cruz Tall Boy and the Epic Marathon back to back at Interbike Demo Days 2009 and it immediately struck me that when questions are posed on internet forums across the nation (and beyond) as to what XC 29er FS to buy for fast trail work, any short list should include these two bikes. So now, after riding the Epic Marathon for quite some time, and recently the Tall Boy on the same trails I am quite familiar with, I have come to some conclusions. And interestingly enough the conclusions are very very close to my initial thoughts at Demo Days.
So to begin with, let’s take a look at the two bikes as far as parts selection, set-up, and weights and dimensions.
Parts:
The Epic is a nearly stock Marathon model, XL with only tire changes from the way it came out of the box with a $6100.00 retail price.. It is a rather impressive combo of 2×10 XX SRAM goodies, a custom Reba with carbon crown, etc. The Roval wheels are quite nice. Top end stuff here, but the parts do drive up the cost of the Marathon. And, there is a bit of resistance in the off road world to 2×10 as a viable mountain bike drive train for the average Joe, citing increased wear, finicky set –up and high replacement costs as an answer to a question they were not asking. However, my time on the 2×10 has been flawless and it makes other shifty stuff feel numb and slow in comparison. And as always, the good stuff always costs. It is also available as a frame/fork/seat post/front derailleur combo for $2800.00
The Tall Boy is a frame set retailing for $2400.00 that you can order parts kits for from Santa Cruz or an authorized bike shop can build up or whatever. In this case the XL Tall Boy I had to ride was a very decent mix of XT, Avid, DT Swiss, etc, with a Fox F29 Fit/RLC 15QR fork set to 100mm, the basic SPXxc kit,which should sell for $4700.00. It was a very smart build and typical of what an average buyer would spec for weekend duty, not racy weight weenie-ness.
Set-up: By set-up, I mean the overall feel of the combo of the parts and the bike as a whole. The Epic Marathon is a 100mm front and 90mm rear travel bike. It has a slightly narrow handlebar compared to my normal bikes I ride and the long top tube, 105mm stem, and low Q-Factor SRAM XX crank add up to give the bike a tucked in, stretched out and fast feeling ride. The Mini Brain and the highly tunable Reba make for a bike that immediately comes off as a fast pedaling, firmer feeling ride. It is not a quick steering bike despite the parts list, and Specialized chose to keep things manageable with a slightly slacker head tube angle.
The Tall Boy as I had it with 100mm front and rear travel, felt nearly equal to the Epic in overall feel, but had a wide handlebar that is more like I run on my single speed. Other than that, the relationships of bar height, reach, etc were very, very close between the two.
The tale of the scale/tape: I hung both bikes on the scale (with the same SPD pedals) and the Epic squeaked out a victory by 9 ounces. The Epic was 27lbs, 6oz and the Tall Boy was 27lbs 15oz. The Tall Boy begins with a weight advantage with the carbon frame, but the uber-parts selection of the Marathon overcomes that. The Tall Boy with a comparable parts build in XTR, etc would be lighter than the Epic for sure and would likely cost about the same. The dimensions of the two are very close. The Epic’s combo of angles and dimensions gives it a ¾” longer wheelbase, likely from the .25” longer TT, the steeper seat tube angle, and the slacker HT angle. BB heights, chain stay lengths, etc are all very close. I applaud the move across the 29er full suspension market toward shorter chain stay lengths. 18”-18.25” is an old and tired dimension in my opinion and the advertised 17.5”-17.75” range of these bikes is welcome.
OK. So what? In the end what really matters is how does the bike feel? What does one do better than or worse than the other? Well, first off let me say that we are in an era of really, really good 29er FS bikes. The sharp bike makers have got this pretty buttoned down now and either one of these choices are pretty stunning in comparison to what we had to choose from a couple of years ago. However there are enough things going on here to set the two bikes apart a bit. And so, let us get down to it and choose a winner.
Weight weenie award: Tall Boy The Epic’s M5 aluminum frame kicks it out of contention for the lightweight contender and it takes some very light parts to get at the 27 pound mark with an XL frame. The Tall Boy with a light build would likely be 1.5 pounds lighter, I would guess. It would cost ya’ though to get there. Carbon rules here.
Best XC Race Bike Award: Epic Marathon The Tall Boy pedals really well, is stiff at the BB and handles like a Ferrari. But the Epic comes from a lineage of winning XC bikes at the pro level and the Mini Brain, the Reba, the XX parts…mostly the Mini Brain…just make for the best FS pedaling experience I have felt if you value a responsive, fast pedaling, good handling race bike. Frankly I would not want either one of them for fast and smooth-ish pure XC racing. Give me a carbon 29er hard tail. But for endurance racing or rougher, longer XC contests it is plain to me that the Epic was bred for that stuff. Yes, it will be heavier than a Tall Boy has the potential to be, but weight is not everything.
Best Trail Bike Award: Tall Boy The Epic is a better trail bike then you would expect it to be. The 90mm of rear travel feels pretty good as long as hucking is not part of the plan. The handling is actually calmer on the Epic with the slacker HT angle compared to the Tall Boy. But, not everyone’s trail is the same. Some folks live in the land of fast and smooth and others in roots and rocks city. The Tall Boy wins this award due to its versatility. At 100mm of front travel, it handles like a sports car and would be killer weaving through the hardwoods (better cut down that handlebar though). Run a 120mm fork (something that would void the warranty on the Epic Marathon) on the Tall Boy and it would slow it down juuust a touch as far a steering response and give it a bigger bike feel for rougher trails. The Epic’s Brain shock, unless you tune it to be pretty much useless, will always add some degree of initial bump resistance. With the Mini Brain set for all around riding which for me is about 5-6 clicks out from fully ‘on’, plush is not its thing although it would not be right to call it harsh. Frankly I prefer that, but to be fair, the VPP of the Tall Boy is plusher and stays hooked up over all kinds of stuff regardless. In the end, versatility wins the day.
Best Value Award: Epic Marathon This will likely get the most raspberries from the crowds but I will say my piece about it. The Tall Boy is not cheap to begin with at $2400.00 for the frame only. A sharp build on it will be pricey but so is the Marathon. But there are things about the Marathon that carry it over the goal line in this contest. The heavier chassis brings with it an air of durability and stoutness that carbon has not obtained yet. It may some day, but not yet. I like my bikes to last a while and although the Tall Boy is coming from a reputable company, time will tell how it holds up long term. You could build a Tall Boy with XX as long as the narrow crank would fit, but the Reba with the carbon crown and titanium innards…the system of the Roval wheels ready for tubeless duty…if the Marathon meets your ideals it is an impressive package right out of the box.
Summation: All in all it comes down to what you value in a FS XC bike. The Tall Boy is plusher by design, more versatile, dead sexy looking, carbon light, and the VPP is magic when pedaling over techy sections of trail. The Epic is the King of overall pedaling response and taunts you to go faster and then some. If you like to pedal out of the saddle and feel like you are leaving nothing behind in wasted effort no FS bike can touch it (that I have ridden) and yet it will move very fast down the trail, rough or not. For where I live and what I value in a bike, I would choose the Epic. The single speeder in me loves to climb standing and the Epic rules there. I also have come to find that I do not really care for bikes that are very active/plush. I actually run my Lev 3.0 with Propedal on 90% of the time and I think it is fine. But, if I lived in an area where I spent more time pedaling up and over ledges and nasty stuff, roots, etc, I would sit down and be happy on the VPP linked, carbon beauty of a Tall Boy and never look back.
The overall winner in this contest is not Specialized or Santa Cruz, it is we, the buyers of this new crop of 29er FS bikes. The choices are many, the bikes are great. Choose your weapon.
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Great Review! How do you think the Superfly 100 would match up?
@Tim
Well, my brief time on the Fly100 was colored by poor set-up so I have to reserve comments in any specific way. It would have been in interesting comparison, though.
On the schedule is a ride on a revised JET-9. I am very keen to see how it slots in there as well.
grannygear
Again thanks for the info. And again where do you think the Big Mama fits in?
@Bruce.
Hmmm…Good question. I only had one ride on the Big Mama…GT owns one…so he may have more thoughts on this.
I really liked the Big Mama. I thought it was a snappy pedaling bike and fun on the rough trails of Bootleg. It would be interesting to get one at home and really pedal it for a while.
I will guess that many will call out the Big Mama as an outdated FS design compared to the Tall Boy (even the FSR gets that comment) but I am not at all convinced that a bike like my Lenz Lev or the Big Mama is outdated…yet. Sure, Pro Pedal is needed, but that is not a big deal most of the time.
I would say that the Big Mama likely has the versatility of the Tall Boy and the stout construction of the Epic in a more plain wrapper. I am skeptical of the long chainstays, but I sure had no issues when I rode it that would point to that number and say, “aha!”, so maybe that is irrelevant. I think for the less blessed of wallet largess, the Big Mama is a great choice in a do-all 29er FS. With fork changes and component choice, I bet it could be raced or trail ridden as one needed.
If I was cost conscience and wanted a one bike FS solution, the Big Mama would be right in the top choices.
Also, IMO, Salsa rocks. A lot of gear heads there putting there hearts into the product.
grannygear
What about the Mach 429? How do you think it would match up against either of these two, or more particularly the Epic?
I give up. On a flat smooth surface the Tallboy will cycle it’s suspension and it’s noticeable. Of course, a smoother pedal stroke would help. However, when on the gas, accelerating and banging up through the gears, bob is minimal. Going up a grade sitting, the bob is not as pronounced. The steeper the grade, the less it bobs. Standing, it locks out. This is the only aspect that is superior to my 429 and the difference is slight. I also try to avoid standing. I’ve tried multiple suspension settings and finally settled on a fairly plush ride utilizing the Propedal 2 setting.
Now the good.
- Twenty pounds more air in the shock, it is now XC sharp at the expense of the ride feeling more progressive and a Little loss of small bump compliance
- Feels like a 26in bike. Very compact dimensions
- Sticky mud washes off very easily, a bonus in these parts
- Hopeful that initial impressions of bearing quality being good continue
- The front triangle is very stiff
- The rear is not a trend setter as far as stiffness, but it is not a noodle either compared to my 429 and Ventana
- The final verdict is that I really like this bike. My inner self knows that my soft butt ultimately prefers a plush ride. I still prefer the taut, squirt ahead suspension of my 429, but I feel I am not making a sacrifice
Great comparison. Need more of this type of stuff. I’d love to see some HT comparisons. And since you sometimes report on Euro stuff, I figured I would point out the “uber” is “ueber” when you don’t use umlauts.
@Bruce: The Big Mama has the chassis stiffness of the Epic Marathon, the similar weight penalty because of that, and the oft used modified single pivot design. Unique to this design though is the flexing seat stays, which become part of the spring system on the bike. The Big Mama responds best to set ups that are more to the less plush side, since the flexing stays can overwhelm a soft damper setting and feel like the bike is suffering from too high a rebound speed. Set up correctly, I thought the Big Mama had short chain stays due to its quick acceleration and ease of popping the front wheel up. Turns out that it has 18 plus inch stays!
How does it compare here? Well, it isn’t really light, like the SC, and it isn’t really efficient out of the saddle like the Epic. The Big Mama is really stiff torsionally and laterally, has tons of tire clearance, and probably is best suited to the everyday sort of trail riding most mountain bikers do. Could it be raced? Yeah, Could it be a big, rough trail machine? Yes. In my mind, it is the “blue collar” everyman’s choice out of these two ultra bling, showcase bikes.
@chris
The 429 is another bike I had one ride on, so my opinion is limited. I remember thinking, “wow, this frame feels stiff” as far as pedaling, turning, yanking on the bars.
It did feel quite ‘tight’ in the overall feel of the rear suspension and I have read that Chris C. tuned it that way on purpose. I liked it.
One thing that is unique about the Mini-Brain is that once the initial force of input into the shock overcomes the setting in the Brain, it moves freely, so fast and rough trails smooth out. But as long as you are under whatever it takes to get the shock to open up, it feels locked up
I am not sure if anything else quite gets there. Now, that may not be the best for all people in all places, but it is unique and dramatic. I like it a lot.
@Dr Don
Have you tried the Monarch shock?
@kurti_sc
Hey, thanks for the grammatical tip!
grannygear
I’m may have to try the Monarch. I don’t want to shell out any more dough.
One wonders what sort of package Specialized could have put together if they had foregone the XX drivetrain. Much cheaper, almost as light? There is a big gap in the Epic 29 lineup between the comp at $2800 and the Marathon at $6100.
Very nice comparison, thorough and reasoned. I’m looking forward to an apples n oranges, Jet 9 vs. Superfly 100 vs.Tallboy scenario. I hope the new Jet is sweet cause I don’t think I can clear the carbon frame price tag with the tower.
@jsg
I think you are on to something there. In a way, the Marathon is a flagship bike. The only thing missing is a full carbon frame but then it would only be more $$$.
I have to admit, I was way less than thrilled with the price tag of the XX stuff and I still think it is hard to get over the price of it….but….I am always amazed at how good it works, shifts, etc. It really is better than any 3×9 stuff I have ever ridden, but I have never been on the latest XTR stuff, so maybe that is da bomb.
I would not be surprised to see a carbon Marathon Epic 29er that takes over the flagship role, costs more, and then leaves room for a Comp and Expert Epic to even out the cost choices…but I may be wrong.
grannygear
Guitar Ted…your insights and objective (I hope) informative are invaluable…Bravo!…That said, I am leaning toward the SC TallBoy as my new XC race machine…why?…I’m on a 26″ Intense Spider & I LOVE the VPP rear suspension…amazing on climbs and descents…and according to one of the online MTB retailers, set up to my specs fully built (including pedals & bottle cages), the SC Tall Boy in Large will weigh 24.566 lb. – That’s sick (and expensive)for a 29′er FS…arguably an entirely different ride than the SC TBoy you rode…also, 2×10 XX won’t work for me in the Northeast (I’m sticking to XO)…and I’m in it for the fun and the TallBoy just seems to be more comfortable…not to mention that the SC TallBoy just looks faster and carbon has the huge bling factor…and in the end, isn’t it all about how you look
Thanks again – you guys rock…hmmm…hence, the Guitar Ted…I’m catching on!
@Empty B.
You will be very pleased with the Tall Boy as a race bike if you already love the VPP suspension. If you lose, it will not be the bike! Of course, that is pretty much always true! But win or not….
“You look mahvelous”
Fernando.
It seems like a pears to pineappes comparison. Let’s stack up Alu Tallboy agains alu Marthon or let’s make Specialized man up and spew a full carbon S-works epic with 100mm travel in the rear.
When will you be testing the new Jet 9? and a Superfly again on the same trails?
@JohnClimber
JET 9 on schedule for late this month…maybe…no plans for a Superfly at this time.
grannygear
update – I think I may have it. After backing down on the pressure from 250 to 240 with PP2, it still felt too cushy. When set to 250 with PP1, it felt too progressive and still bobbed a little. At PP2/250 the plush was gone. Would 5lb make a difference? 245/PP2 was a little too edgy, but with PP1 it felt right. I think it bobs less with PP1???? Could it be that when set to PP1 the bike squats more in it’s travel, thereby lessening bob? I don’t have a freakin clue, but now it is plush and like Bike Mag said “it’s like a magic carpet ride”. It doesn’t quite have the snap of my Pivot, but it is close.
@GT: i’m curious, how these stack up against fisher’s offerings? not the rumblefish as much as the hi-fi.
@bonefishjake: The HiFi line up is definitely aimed at the XC/Trail rider. This would put it more into the category of rider looking for a fast ride, a race platform, or for the rider whose trails are more towards the smooth, buff side. I think that folks buying HiFi rigs and expecting them to be Trail/light AM rigs, or all day rough trail rigs may eventually find that the Rumblefish was a better choice.
To put it succinctly, the Epic Marathon and SC Tall Boy cover a wider range of applications than the HiFi line up does. The HiFi is more specific in purpose, (XC) and the Rumblefish covers the rest of what these two bikes compared here do. That’s my take on the three bikes in question here.
As the Spech Epic can’t be bought over here in the UK, what is the closes thing to a bob free hardtail climbing short travel full susser should I look at?
Or which Spech USA shops will send over the frame only for me?
Wanna race?…Two weeks into it and my Santa Cruz TallBoy has won me over…Big (29″) Time!…for me (48 year old living in the Northeast), it’s the fastest XC race mtb available…weighs under 26 lbs…climbs like a billy goat…handles the tight & twisty…sick on descents…lines are obsolete…Outta Shape B. got a 10th Place finish yesterday in a XC race with 4500 vertical feet of climbing…the SC TB will go as fast as you want…my seXXXy machine is just waiting for the engine to get more tuned up!
Thanks for the info. Any comparisons on the Superfly 100 vs Tall Boy or Epic?
@markymark: The Superfly 100 is lighter and racier feeling than either of the other two. It can be set up to feel pretty stout out of the saddle, but the Epic still feels more hardtail-like in that regard. The Santa Cruz felt more trail-bikish to me.
All three are excellent bikes. If I were to be racing XC, Marathon, or shorter endurance races mostly, the Superfly 100 would be my choice overall. The other two could do that task, but the Fisher is going to feel racier and come out lighter weight.
If I only occasionally raced, either of the other two would do, but if long endurance races were on the menu, I would have a hard time not choosing the Epic Marathon.
Those are my thoughts………….:)
Amazing test & valuable insights!
The Tallboy is the thing for me and i’m just about to order a frameset. I’ve one question i hope you can help answering: I’m 5′7” (176 cm) and 30” (76 cm) standover height – will
the medium frame fit ok?
Br jonas
Thanks for answer, any comparisons on Gary Fisher Superfly 100 vs Santa Cruz Tall Boy
So, am I hearing this right in that the tall boy bobs less when you’re standing? I’m considering going to the tall boy from a salsa mamasita (which I love) and am mostly a standing climber (even on smooth stuff) so efficient climbing ability is where it’s at for me.