Twenty Nine Inches has just taken delivery of a Singular Cycles Gryphon model frame and fork. The Gryphon is the latest Singular model to hit North American shores, but it has been in development for awhile. The Gryphon, a drop bar specific design, is capable of being set up as a single speed with a Phil Wood eccentric bottom bracket, (included with the frame), or as a geared bicycle using full housing runs.
Our plan is to set up the Gryphon as a single speed for this review. However; before that we will be coming soon with the Out Of The Box post which will show off the frame and fork and where you will find more details on this steel framed beauty. Until then, check out the Singular site or contact the U.S. distributor, The Prairie Peddler .
Stay tuned, more coming soon!
Note: The reviewed frame and fork is being provided to Twenty Nine Inches at no charge for review. We are not being paid or bribed for this review. We will give our honest opinion or thoughts through out.
Nice graphics! Perhaps the nicest on any bike! Now if they would only get rid of that dumb EBB!
I have been riding a Singular Swift for over 3 years now and have many miles on it. EBB works great – no creaking and easy to adjust. I’ve been through 2 British winters, a couple muddy races here in the States and it’s been better than my old SS with the Bushnell EBB which was heavier. Sam at Singular is the man!
That’s an awesome bike. Really looking forward to this review.
I’ve loved the look of these since first seeing one in a Singletrack review in the UK. Hope the ride matches the style.
What I want to know is how this bike compares to the Fargo. Both bikes really interest me right now. I don’t do much “gravel grinding” around here, nor do I do any packing of gear. In some respects the Gryphon and the Fargo are similar. So that’s the comparison I’m looking for.
GT:
I have a somewhat related question(s). I had a specialized mtn bike with drops back 1989 and I loved it but then got sucked into the big squish for a decade. I forget what that bike was called but it was like a rockhopper with drops and bar end shifters and cantis
29ers and disc brakes make this idea fun again for me now that I am old and big. Glad to see this opening up.
The taller head and shorter T tube geometry is interesting but can you elaborate on the benefits you think it produces.
also, Thinking about bars for this application, what do we have to choose from? Soma? on one? Salsa bell lap, woodchip?
In addition I am looking at the Salsa woodchipper. Can you tell us how that (and any other flared drop) bar is measured? Is it c to c from the drop to drop or from the bar end points. Big difference in a decision for me
OR? is there a drop bar out there that can accommodate both a desirable off road drop position AND a top bar handling position width? For whatever reason I want both and it is not jumping out from my limited knowledge
Last; and I probably should have emailed this list
; have you ever run the BB7′s with drop lever/cross lever combo routing?
Big Chris, I’m sure Ted will address your questions in his review, but I thought I’d just throw in my 2c as well.
The reasoning behind the relatively tall head head tube and short top tube is to put the drops of an off road drop bar in approximately the same position as they would be if you were using a flat bar on a ‘standard’ mtb (e.g. the Swift). Naturally a drop bar will make your hand position lower and further away than they would be on a flat bar, so the Gryphon frame design compensates for this and means you can use drops without resorting to (for me) ugly and impractical high rise stems. Fit is one thing though, but there is also handling. The increased reach of the bar coupled with the relatively slacker head angle and greater offset fork puts more weight in front of the steering axis. Importantly weight distribution between the wheels and relative hand and saddle position remain the same, but the changed position of the steering axis makes it easier to initiate turns with small weight shifts.
Of the bars you mention I’d recommend the On One Midge, the WTB Mountain drop is also worth considering. I’m not sure what you mean by a ‘top bar handling position’ – do you mean on the hoods or the flat top section of the bar? I guess the flats. In which case the wider of these bars tend to have the wider top sections, for instance the tops of a Midge are really as wide as most road bars.
That said, this line of questioning leads me to suspect you may be missing the point of the tall/high frame design. There shouldn’t be any need to resort to riding on the tops except for just cruising along or maybe long steady climbs, the frame is intended that you can comfortably ride in the drops the majority of the time. If you get that result you really have no need for cross-top levers either – any situation in which you would be wanting to brake you would be on the drops anyhow.
WIWR, the Gryphon is really intended to be a mountain bike with drop bars, while I gather the Fargo is specifically designed to be a long distance off road tourer. I’ll be interested to hear what GT has to say.
Thanks to everyone for the kind comments!
Best,
Sam (@Singular)
@Sam: Thanks for chiming in, Sam. I appreciate that.
To everyone else: There will be both a Fargo comparison and some drop bar specific information to come- But let’s not get ahead of ourselves!
I want to focus first on the Singular Gryphon frame and fork. The Fargo comparisons will be made after this frame and fork have been built up and ridden. The drop bar specific questions should all be touched upon in a planned separate post coming soon.
Thanks for the comments. Stay tuned!
I don’t think I am missing the point at all. That is quite patronizing and myopic IMHO The point of drops is to have multiple positions.
perhaps it is a myopic bike
Your comments regarding the geometry are welcome and I appreciate them and the concept is quite interesting. If I understand you correctly you suggest that the frame was designed entirely around the assumption that people are going to ride in the drop only
thank you
BC
this place is not for q and a anymore we are on a need to know basis
if you are going to post just tell everyone how great they are like you were at interbike or something if you have anything to say
Chris, my only point was that the frame is designed for drop bars to be ridden most of the time in the drops, I’m sorry if I seemed offensive. I think you only need to look at the bikes I design to see that narrow-mindedness is not something I’m often accused of. Of course one of the great virtues of drop bars is the multiple hand positions offered, I use all of them. I was just saying that for most of your descending, and situations when you are likely to need to brake, the thought is that you will probably be in the drops, not on the hoods. If you’d like to run cross top levers for a little peace of mind when riding the tops that’s great – they would work fine with road BB7′s or any other cable disc brake designed for use with road levers.
Best,
Sam
@bigchris: Sorry you seem offended. I don’t think that was the intention at all. As a long time off road drop bar user and as someone that has researched the topic extensively, I can tell you that Sam is pretty spot on with his take on this. There are several reasons why drops off road are not anything like drops for any other kind of cycling. As I said, I will detail that out in a separate post. I hope you will check in to that when I post it.
@jimmyD: Well, here we have the company owner being an active participant in the discussion and you claim this is on a “need to know” basis?
This topic is a rather detailed one. Several technical points regarding style and set up need to be discussed to properly get a grasp on the things bigchris is wanting to know. Sam has touched on some of it, but there is a lot more to know about riding drops off road.
That is why I am waiting to give a proper answer in a detailed post, as I stated earlier. This isn’t a good place to do that. (comments section)
Off road drop bars used off road are a different kettle of fish from anything most riders are used to. It may not even appeal to most riders. Cool. I get that. This isn’t for them.
For those that want to know more, please be patient. I’m working on it.
A Gryphon is making it’s way through the cold wind and snow to my house in the next couple of days. I am setting it up as a double 36/22-11/34 and plan on Woodchippers for the bars. I never used the drops until I acquired a Fargo and was smitten with the position. I put my hands on the tops for eating pizza and playing Chess. I run through the woods and climbs utilizing the drops for leverage and control and this seems intuitive with a drop bar off roader. The Fargo is an off road tourer but I have taken it everywhere my Niner has been and have been delighted how far it will go to please.
I am still torn between STI and bar ends so if anyone wants to chime in I would appreciate the input. I reckon if I rarely use the hoods STI might be the second best choice. One other slight issue will be overall length to the bars. Would an 80mm stem be a little short for control?
I fear a battle between the Fargo and Gryphon for ride time brewing but will be smiling whichever on I’m on.
I’m interested to hear more on your toughts about the handling. I hadn’t really thought about it in regards to drop bar specific frames. The short top tube + longer reaching bars would slow down handling a bit I’d imagine. It puts your hands further away from the steerer tube, meaning your hands have to move a greater distance to achieve the same degrees of rotation for the fork. Also, the shorter top tube would lend to a shorter wheelbase, meaning more weight on the front tire (as you mentioned). Any issue with toe overlap? Of course head tube angle and fork offset all have a huge influence on how the bike feels as well.
Looking forward to reading more. I don’t have (much) desire for a drop bar bike, but still, I’m intrigued.
This is the kind of stuff that keeps me coming back to the site. Thought provoking material.
big chris – here’s a great explaination of offroad drop bars from shiggy. http://www.mtbtires.com/features/bikes/why_dropbars.html I think that might clear it up a bit what the Gryphon is optimized for. So its not necessarily about multiple hand positions – but more for the ergonomic and bike control benefits of drop bars.
It sounds to me like your question is sort of ‘is there a bar that lets you have your cake and eat it too – great position in the drops AND on the hoods?’ In my limited experience, you gotta pick one and go with it. If you ride in the hooks primarily – the hoods are too high to comfortably use, but if the hoods are just right – the drops will be too low for comfort. When I take my Long Haul Trucker off road, I usually switch the stem to a short, high angle one to get the drops up. That works for me, but obviously its a bit of a PITA to change the stem all the time. I guess some people ride the hoods offroad (ala cyclocross), but I find that my hands want to bounce right off and braking power is less than optimal. Cross levers might help a bit, but then your hand position is so narrow, its hard to control the bike. There are some “alternative” handlebars that offer multiple hand positions like the “H” bar, the “J” bar, “trekking” butterfly bars, the mustache bar, or maybe even Rivendell’s Albotros bar. If you’re searching for the ‘perfect’ bar, one of the those might work for you. Finally, I realize that wide riser bars with barends are a huge mountain bike fashion faux pas, but I have a bike set up that way and its great – fairly comfortable braking position combined with phenominal climbing leverage when needed.
GT – you have the coolest job in the world. Can’t wait for your review. Sure there’s the similarity to the Fargo, but since the Fargo is really more of a touring bike and the Gryphon is more of a straight forward recreational mountain bike, I envision Gryphon’s competition mainly being other steel 29ers commonly run rigid like the Karate Monkey, Jabber/Bander, Soma Juice, Q-ball, stuff like that. And the Swift, of course. You know, is the Gryphon JUST all about the drop bars, or is there more to it that we should know? …besides the headbadge, which is quite possibly the coolest one in all of 29er-don, IMHO. Eager to read your opinions when you get some time on the beast.
Yes, GT…you really do have the coolest job in the world!
Hobo, look forward to hearing what you think of the Gryphon. My take on STI v’s bar-end shifters is that if you are racing or ride like you are then STI’s are great, instantaneous shifting from any position. If you move at a bit more sedate pace and prefer long rides where reliability is also a factor then bar ends would be my choice. Plus there’s just that nice action of a slight movement of the heel of the hand to shift which is quite enjoyable.
dman, it’s not just a static system where bars push stem which pivots around head tube, turns wheel. It’s a dynamic system where input in one dimension changes the way the others are behaving, yet it works so well. How a bicycle actually steers and reacts to rider input is a complex system of factors. Not one which I profess to understand completely, but I like to think I’m starting to get a handle on it. It’s not so much that your weight is over the front wheel, as over the steering axis. This gives a more direct, connected feel to teh steering which is governed more by bodyweight shifts than just turning the bars. The effect of the shorter top tube on wheelbase is offset by the slacker head angle and more offset fork as you note. A large Swift only has a 7mm longer wheelbase than a large Gryphon, despite 26mm difference in effective TT length.
In the end though you can theorise all day, in the end it’s best just to ride and try different things and see what feels right to you.
Sam
After a Fargo ride spinning out the 36/11 I decided I might want a triple for cruising. I will use bar-ends for a couple of reasons, I do like the subtly of the shift and they will handle a triple I can swap easily when I want a big ring for fast flats or longer on road rides.
The plan is a understated black build highlighting the great graphics. I will take some pics as the Gryphon comes together.
bigchris, Your bike was a Specialized Rock Combo
I’ve commented about this before, but there is nothing quite like being in the hooks of a well-set-up drop bar while off-road. See all the comments (and the original post, of course!) of this post titled:
Salsa Cycles Fargo: Getting Fit On Drop Bars For Off Roading
Go to the archives, the post was Feb. 18th 2009.
Also, Hobo, I’d personally go STI.
1. I don’t want to spear my quad with a bar-end shifter.
2. On standing climbs, really rocking the bike, sometimes a bar-end shifter will hit your leg and give you a nice surprise upshift you didnt’ want. The bar set-up and your body position have to be just right, but a bike I had did that all the time and I hated it.
I’ve been running old 8-speed sti shifters with everything from a 42/32/20 mountain crank to a 50/36 road crank. (both with a deore short-cage RD and 11-30 cassette) No issues.
Gryphon is having the headset pressed and awaiting a few bits from there. Colors/Colour is sweet and graphics more robust than the pictures.
JTF, I ride a Fargo with bar-ends now and it climbs like a monkey with no rub or fuss. If I have to swing the bike more than 30 degrees either way it could be a problem with me being on the wrong hill. I can swap cranks really easy with this build as the bar-ends will go double or triple.
I have STI on skinny tire bikes and love them but this bike will be going places where skinny is unwelcome and shifting will be minimized.
@justanoldhobo: I am in process of building up this one here as well. I will be going SS, but I would submit that a Woodchipper with its swept extentions pretty much puts the whole unwanted shifting thing into the non-issue category.
And as far as that goes, I have had literally no problems what so ever with a Midge bar/bar end set up on my Fargo in single track. I will say that shifting is done less often, but I can say that I didn’t complain but a few times where I thought an easier shift may have helped me clean a steep or technical section.
It may be that we get a bit sucked in to the “ultra-convenient” easy shifting found on modern mountain bikes, and when something a bit more challenging to our skill set comes along, we complain that it isn’t any good.
Not that modern stuff is bad, or unnecessary, but often times I try to remind myself that good riders were doing the same rides on friction shifted, rigid bikes years ago. So, the point is, it “can” be done, you just have to be willing to adjust your “style” a bit. If not, then things like bar ends and rigid bikes may not be a good fit for some folks.
Horses for courses.
@Gted,
I will have no problems with bar-ends on the Woodchipper. I have played with going ss and rode the Fargo many a mile simulating the ride staying in 36/17. One quickly notices the natural tendency to roll the hills with more bravado and grace. I am afraid I could get hooked pretty easy so anxious to see what you do with the build.
The Fargo introduced me to riding the drops and that is such a comfortable position for me. The Fargo also got me off the same old roads and view of advertising on jerseys and into a more interesting environment of rural and urban frontiers.
The Gryphon becomes the fast ride replacing narrow tires with a pretty much go anywhere light set up giving me the position I like.
The woods are calling so on with the lights and off to the see what I can scare up.
Thanks for the input of all on the build and Gted thanks for continually providing interesting articles. Did you draw the image of MG on TV5? I can’t stay between the lines of a coloring book, nice one!
@justanoldhobo: Yep! That was my drawing of MG. Thanks for the compliment.
Sweet, good to know the Woodchippers don’t have an issue with bar-ends. I’m playing around with a cable-actuated hydraulic disc set-up so I can use woodchippers/sti/Hayes 9 brakes. If it works OK I may end up modifying some better brakes, but for now the old set of 9s works for experimenting.
Nice Build!
Racing ralph’s 2.4 do fit but it’s very tricky in the rear and very little clearance. I switched to maxxis ardent 2.25.
Here is my setup with the new wtb dropbar. Not really confident with it, reach is too long, and thinking of switching it for an on-one Midge.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/28816347@N07/sets/72157622772600973/
have fun with it.