Recently a leak occurred on mtbr.com which let the world in on a rumor that I have been privvy to since last spring regarding Salsa Cycles dabbling in titanium. The possibility of a titanium El Mariachi was part of that conversation. Now it has been “officially” confirmed by Salsa Cycles.
The Salsa Cycles “Amigos Blog” had this to say:
We’ve been riding ti prototypes for a year. In fact, Joe Meiser won Trans Iowa last year on a titanium prototype. And for those still longing for a new steel El Mariachi and Ala Carte, we are still working on those too. Tooling for our proprietary steel tubes is almost complete.
Last but not least, for all my single speeding friends that panicked and emailed me yesterday because the one leaked picture they saw wasn’t single speed compatible, we haven’t forgotten about single speeding. Please find peace knowing we are working on it and please remember that we like to ride single speed too. The first ones won’t be ti, but after that who knows?
For pricing, finish, graphics, spec, availability, ordering, details, etc, you will have to just wait until we can properly release the information. Monday or Tuesday of next week, we’ll share pricing and ordering details.
Over the next week and building up to an official dealer viewing at Frostbike (February), we will be sharing bits of information and sneak peeks here on the blog. Who knows, if you are in the right place at the right time you just might see some of it out being ridden and tested….In fact I bet you already have.
Until then, we are going to keep working on all these projects. Thanks for all your time today and I hope you enjoyed the post. I know I did!
Ride & Smile!
So, until we can get further info on all the new Salsa Goodness, we will just have to stare longingly at these photos…….or go out and play in the snow!
Stay tuned!
The SS version will be very interesting to me. I do not like the geo changes in Lynskey’s 2010 models, and I can’t afford their custom prices. So if the geo is similar the El M’s of the past, this is probably a high possibility bike for me. Just waiting to see the tensioning method…
This is going to be an incredible bike… Think about how incredible the steel El Mariachi rides, and that’s only going to get better with the titanium version.
Wish I Were Riding, I know this much — it’s not simply a rebadged Lynskey. It’s a Salsa, using Salsa-specced tubes and Salsa geometry. The changes Lynskey made to their models have absolutely nothing to do with what the Ti El Mariachi has up its sleeve. You’ll have to wait until Salsa releases the geometry chart for proof, but rest assured, they didn’t screw this one up. It’s going to handle like it’s on rails, just like all Salsas do.
Bottom line: it’s the bike I’ll be racing in 2010.
Aren’t Lynskey’s custom? So you can get whatever geometry you want… now… right?
MG – I didn’t say it was a rebadged Lynskey, and I do expect it will be nice. Just waiting to see the geo, pricing, and SS tensioning system that it will employ. I’m positive you will enjoy yours next year. I hope you have a great season on it to!
Shop Mechanic – You can get custom from Lynskey, true, but their custom prices are WAY over my head. The offer stock geo versions of both the Ridgeline and Pro29 models. I don’t like the geo changes to their stock models for 2010.
GT-Any word on “country of origin”? Will these be Lynskey made or somewhere in the Far East? Do you think that this might put pressure on Niner to revisit their ti bikes?
Sorry, I read on MTBR that it will be Tennessee made.
@Willie: Will it put pressure on Niner to re-visit the titanium project? I don’t think so, not at this time. Niner made a commitment to carbon fiber and I think that if they choose to pursue that avenue, (which lends itself to FS designs more so than titanium), they could take that technology further than they could titanium.
For Salsa, it makes sense on a couple of levels; #1- The designs they choose to make in full suspension have been in Scandium enhanced aluminum, and with the investments they have made pursuing that material, going to carbon fiber would be “out of character” for the company. #2: There is a historical precedent for a titanium Salsa Cycles frame, not that this figured into their equations at all- but there it is.
I don’t mean to say that Niner will never do a titanium bike, or that Salsa Cycles will never do a carbon fiber bike, but paths have been made by both companies that lead me to believe it won’t happen anytime soon.
GT-I’m a little confused………Didn’t Niner have two ti prototypes a few years ago? Isn’t that 90% of the work? Also, doesn’t one of Salsa’s models have a carbon rear end?
I think it’s great Salsa is finally taking the Ti route in the mtb market. Lynskey has the brains, and Salsa-QBP have the scale and distribution, so I think it’ll be a great alliance. Salsa also provides some value on the design side of things. There’s been a niche market for reasonably-priced production mtb Ti frame/bikes in the U.S. just waiting to be filled. On the road side, it would be nice if Salsa came out with a Ti offering as well, though the market there is a bit more competitive. But if Salsa can come out with very competitively-priced road Ti offering, they could be successful there as well.
That said, I think the next step for Salsa on the road market (and soon on the mtb market as well) should be Carbon. There will always be market niches for Steel and Ti, but Aluminum and, especially, the more expensive Scandium has its days numbered in the broader bicycle market as Carbon tech improves and decreases in price. Carbon will never be as ‘craftsmanlike’ as Ti or Steel. Yet, for racing/competition, Carbon is undeniably the best material available today. Carbon is no longer the future. It’s the present. Witness how Independent Fabrication, a prestigious and succesful Steel and Ti custom builder if there ever was one, has already entered the Carbon market.
I think a full carbon road race offering from Salsa in the next model year would make lots of sense, in addition to their multiple Steel road offerings and a new Ti road offering. Scandium eventually be phased out. There just isn’t enough market demand/recognition for it. Carbon is both lighter and more pliable, and Ti is stronger and nearly as lightweight. Scandium is stronger than Alu, but it’s also much more expensive. There are Carbon bikes/frames these days selling for less than Scandium bikes (though the Carbon at the Scandium pricepoint is admittedly not the best . Yet.). I think one can count the number of production brands making Scandium offerings with one hand. Maybe even half a hand. A carbon offering will eventually make sense for Salsa on the mtb side as well.
The way I look at it, if I want comfort, durability and craftsmanship, I go Steel. If I want those things plus lighter weight as well, I go Ti. If instead what I want most is a podium position, I go Carbon. Being a bicycle addict and lover, I currently own bikes in all three materials, of course. Each has its pros and cons.
6th Element, I don’t necessarily agree with you, as at present, the value proposition of top-end carbon frames is tough to justify. I’d much rather have a more durable and crash-worthy titanium frame under me as a self-paid semi-professional cross country and endurance mountain bike racer than a more fragile and perhaps slightly lighter carbon fiber frame.
It’s about durability, longevity and crash-worthiness for me, because when somebody stacks it at 20+ mph going into the first corner during a race three wheels in-front of me, I don’t have anywhere to go but down, and any damage to my bike isn’t getting paid for by anyone but myself. That said, I’ve seen derailleurs ripped clean off unbent hangers on titanium frames that were straight enough to continue to be ridden (once a new derailleur and other parts were installed). Yes, you can bend/break a ti frame, but in my 20 years of racing, I’ve seen way more broken carbon frames than ti frames, overall.
And yes, I raced carbon fiber frames for seven seasons, so I do have a good deal of experience with them. That said, I’ve been racing scandium, titanium or steel frames for the past five seasons.
I would never say a carbon offering will never happen from Salsa, but I wouldn’t bet on it either… If anyone asks me, I’ll say “keep developing Ti” until I’m blue in the face. But maybe I’m just getting old (at 37). I’ve just owned a lot of bikes. I know exactly what I want.
And I want titanium.
@Willie: Yes, you are correct, they did have two titanium prototypes, but I think Niner felt more like what “The 6th Element” is saying here, turned a corner, and went down “Carbon Street” They took the material, avoided doing a “cookie cutter” carbon rig, did something fantastic, and pricey. That’s what you have to do to be noticed, marketable, and innovative in that material these days.
@The 6the Element: Well, let’s use Niner as an example here- Carbon fiber can be done in any number of ways, but to be innovative, cutting edge, and marketable, you would have to see Salsa doing what Niner has done. That is, make a $2000.00 plus frame. (Doesn’t fit what you are proposing) Think I’m wrong? Well, why would Salsa want to do anything less than something great, because if they did, I can already here the “me too” chorus warming up. Look at the road offerings as well. Anything innovative, cutting edge, and cool is big $$$ in carbon. (Trek, Specialized, Giant, et al)
The titanium El Mariachi may be suffering a bit from “me too-ism”, but titanium as a whole suffers less from the intense competition to bring “the next best thing” to market.
I can totally see why they don’t do carbon frames. Not saying they never will make a carbon frame, but I can not say it will hurt them if they do not.
Thanks all for your interest and suggestions.
Let me start by saying we like all materials and will continue to use what is appropriate for the desired criteria of a project. We will continue to use and develop products with titanium, carbon, steel and various alloys. All bring unique properties and features to bicycles and components.
Thanks again.
Jason
Salsa Crew
I’m really liking the look of this… Can’t wait to see the specs…
Also, is that an FSA Afterburner 386 crankset in the second pic? If so, interesting choice…
Another Ti frame from Lynskey, ah, we already have a few choices here.
Like mentioned in another post, the Salsa Dos Niner is getting a little tired. I would love to see a dos niner designed to remove the rear triangle at a reasonable price point (the other options are 2K+). Scandium would be good, Ti would even be better….
The reason the dos niner was a hit was because no one else was making one, Be the first to build an affordable travel softail frame.
Salsa–do something new/different/better to stand out.
Thanks!
That Salsa likes Carbon, like Jason said above, is evident in the great carbon handlebars it already offers. In my opinion, Salsa should surprise the market with a kickass carbon stem and carbon seatpost at Interbike in 2011.
In 2012, I think Salsa should shock the market with a high-end, full Carbon road race offering. Salsa showed it can design great road race bicycles when it did the Campeón and, later, the Podio.
Problem is the market is buying less and less Alu road race bicycles, and even less Scandium road race bicycles, and instead buying more and more Carbon roar race bicycles. The same is beginning to happen even for performance or sportive bicycles. This trend will continue into the future, at an even faster pace. The trend will not reverse.
If Salsa were to launch a complete, high-end full Carbon road race bicycles with full SRAM Force group, it would give a major migraine to some of the brands that deal with independent lbs’s and that are offering ever nicer carbon road race bicycles, such and Jamis and Fuji. And even mightier, respected competitors in the production Carbon market, such as Cérvelo and Look, would get a small headache. It is well known that Salsa was inspired by Cérvelo’s RS frame when designing the Podio, and Salsa is right to draw inspiration from suchs giants and aspire to match some of their prowess while doing so at a more attractive pricepoint.
As for mountain bikes, I believe Salsa should also offer a 26″ (wrong blog, I know) full carbon race offering to replace the departed Moto Rapido. That U.K.-based On-One Bicycles, a brand that is very similar to Salsa in many ways (and that began offering Lynskey-sourced Ti mtb frames before Salsa did) is embracing Carbon this year says something.
One well-designed, high quality, relatively affordable (e.g. just shy of $2K for frameset only, and just shy of $3K with SRAM Force) full Carbon road race and mtb race model is all Salsa needs. This is a market sweetspot that only a few respected brands, such as Look, are currently exploting, so there’s a big opportunity for Salsa here.
Salsa will always have many more offerings in their Steel, Scandium and now Ti range, which are the core of its catalog.
What is the make-up of the metal? what is the Ti blend .
Salsa site’s up with Ti additions…