With the breakthrough season that the Gary Fisher/Subaru Team had on 29″ers in 2009, (Along with standout performances by Specialized’s Todd Wells, and others), we can be sure that more elite level mountain bike racers will be looking pretty hard at why these performances on big wheels happened. They also will be considering a move to trying out the wagon wheelers for themselves, although seeing more 29″ers in races may be a bit of a stretch yet. Well, that is until a new development hits the racing scene soon.
Tubular racing wheels and tires.
This development will have a major impact on World Cup level racing and will change the landscape of what we see for racing bikes in the next five years.
Edge Composites rims, as seen on this Rawland Drakkar, will soon be available in tubular form.
Edge Composites will soon have tubular mountain bike rims in 29″er diameter that will be 30mm wide. This will not only be light, strong, and durable, but the width, which is unprecedented in a tubular cross section, will be a mountain biker’s dream come true for racing purposes. The width will virtually guarantee no tire roll offs and will support a wider tire than what has been available before. Oh yes……….about that tire!
Geax has working prototypes of a Saguaro tubular in 29 inch size being tested now. The width of this tire will be 2 inches. This tire in conjunction with Edge’s 30mm wide tubular rim should be a significant enough performance advantage that racers will be salivating at the possibilities. Tubulars allow lower pressures to be run- real world lower pressures- will corner better, and the rims will be stronger due to the better cross section. Also, tubulars can be run flat, so even if a tire does get cut down, an elite level racer can get to the support area and swap out a wheel with little time loss. Cap this off with the lower rolling resistance, better roll over, and better traction of a 29″er wheel diameter and it is pretty tempting for a racer thinking about this new technology.
Of course, sponsorships may prevent some riders from taking advantage here, but as we all know, disguised equipment is often run as “sponsored product”, so if the advantages are too good to ignore, I would look for this to happen. Keep in mind too that the Gary Fisher team will be looking at this stuff and it wouldn’t be out of the question to see a Bontrager product emerge in rim and tire to attain an edge with tubulars for their squad.
All it is going to take is for some team like Gary Fisher/Subaru to jump on this, win, and then we’ll see the nut start to turn. My belief is that this will happen sooner than later. The racing scene stands to change dramatically as a result.
My co-worker is running Bontrager XXX Lite wheels (carbon) tubeless with a 29-3 front and a XR-1 rear on his SF 100. Would the Edge + Geax combo have any advantage over this set-up?
@prphoto: You can take the same arguments for and against clinchers in cyclo-cross, and to a lesser extent, road riding here and cross them over. Because the casing on a tubular can be more supple than that of a clincher, due to design constraints on the clincher, the tubular will exhibit better rolling resistance, better traction, especially in corners, and will be able to be run at a much lower pressure than a clincher could ever be run and not pinch flat.
Downsides to a tubular would include the gluing surface, which could be compromised, and the inability to be quickly repaired. For racing, these arguments are negated because the UCI allows support in races. Also, to further mitigate any downsides for the elite athletes, tubular Edge composite wheels will be 30mm wide, which is at least 5mm wider than any other rim available for tubulars in 700c. This increase in gluing surface area should greatly improve adhesion of mtb tires to the rim.
at least all this stuff won’t be expensive or anything though, haha
Or a hassle to deal with.
GT, don’t the tire companies want the racers to win on something that the consumers will actually buy? I don’t foresee a big uptake in MTB tubulars if they start winning on them.
Guys, price or ease of assembly really is not the issue here. This title of this article has the word ‘racing’ in it.
For its intended purpose, tubulars have an advantage. It’s an advantage that you have to be slightly critical about:
- Tubular construction creates the oppertunity for a much ligher rim, because bead hooks need a lot of extra material to be strong enough.
- The real weight benefit depends on which tubular you use. With the tubulars that are available now, only a Dugast Rhino 45mm would have a weight advantage over a Stan’s rim with a 45mm 480gr tire and sealant. If you send your preferred tire to FMB or Dugast to glue it on a casing, it will be heavier, because their own treads are a lot thinner than regular tires with the sidewalls cut off.
- Rolling resistance is compareable to a light tire with sealant, but once again, this depends on the construction of the tubular. German Bike mag ‘Bike’ once tested a Dugast tube with a glued on Michelin tread and it had a higher rolling resistance than the original tire that had sealant in it. Only the original Dugast or FMB treads have low rolling resistance, because of their suppleness. How Geax will perform is anyone’s guess. It al depends on the construction.
- A tubular could be run on a very low pressure, because of the very low risk of pinch flats. Added to that, the rim shape withstands impact a lot better than a bead hook. I cannot run my XR1′s with a comfortable and easy rolling pressure, because I would dent my 355′s on any trail feature that I could not avoid and I have. With tubulars, I could ride with a lot lower pressures and still be safe.
Ted is right: It’s a matter of time before racers pick up tubulars. My guess is that there will be a lot among them that just blindly follow the trend and ride with less than optimal combinations. For them, it’s just expensive and a hassle. I guess that’s the toll if you do not think for yourself.
I fully agree with Jeroen that we need to keep in mind the tubular technology is a pure bread racing thing. For the rider not seeking the fastest lightest – and are willing to pay the price – they are probably not the best way to go.
And it also correct to mention that simply slapping on a tire´s upper onto a tubular casing does not necessarily create a perfect tire but when done correctly they can be simply fantastic. I have ridden several tubulars in 26 during the last year and the difference they make is nothing but spectacular (always keep in mind – for XC racing!). Weight is not necessarily the major advantage of the system – it is the riding charactersitics that makes all the difference. Hasa anyone you guys seen Richard Cunninghams blazing report on tubulars earlier this year – and I think RC has quite a saying in this matter?
Jeroen´s remark on:”How Geax will perform is anyone’s guess. It al depends on the construction.”
- with the long history of GEAX in producing tubulars for road racing (and winning most renowned titels in the cycling worl with them) and them already providing two 26 tubular MTB tires, it is a safe bet they won´t be doing some nonsense for the 29er tub. Just consider the 290 tpi casing (subtle, sublte, …) encasing ultra thin latex inner tube found on the 26er tubs and you know this tire will ride very smooth.
I know there is and will be lots of discussion about tubulars, their theory, their technology, advantages and disadvantages but very few of the people actually have had the chance to ride real tubular MTB tires for real. The riding is simply spectacular but the need for a new wheelset, the hassle of glueing and the price will narrow down the range of customers to racers only (and some tech geeks for sure). Look out for events where there might well be the opportunity to try them out for yourself.
I fully back up GT´s prospect of 29er tubulars to be rocking the racing curcuits in the future (by the way they already are for 26er, but mostly in disguise).
Good points guys.
However, what about flats? I don’t buy GT’s rationale that they can “just ride on it” until they can get a replacement. If they get it on the farthest possible, most technical part of the course (think lots o’ rocks) is that practical? I mean, these folks carry a tube and “Big Air” for a reason, right?
Just asking. As you can tell, I’m totally tubular (now there’s an 80s phrase!) ignorant, other than helping guys wrestle those buggers on and off rims.
@Dave- Tire companies [B] shouldn’t [B/] care about racers winning on tires available to the public. BF Goodrich wouldn’t think of forcing Formula 1 teams that they sponsor to race consumer tires! It’s become something odd to me that we expect pros in our sport to have the same equipment as everybody. In other sports, pro competition is just seen as a test bed that will hopefully produce trickledown benefits for consumers.
Los
As a roadie, I race on tubulars all the time, and I don’t really like them. There’s nothing wrong with the ride, and tubular setups are nice and light, but the tires are expensive and the gluing process is a huge hassle. Personally, I don’t think the advantages are nearly as great as many people say. And with clinchers getting lighter and lighter, the advantages are disappearing. I think tubulars are archaic, and I think tubeless is the future. Tubular MTB tires seem like a step in the wrong direction.
@Dave: Well, you aren’t going to be going at racing speeds, but you would be able to continue to ride due to the glued surface keeping the tire on the rim. A clincher would come off almost immediately, even tubeless.
@EJ: Every elite level and former expert racer that I have spoken with “that has ridden tubular mtb tires” would be in disagreement with you there. I hear nothing but praise and hope for a workable system for tubular mtb racing tires and wheels.
I hear the same thing on the road. I still think everyone is wrong except for me
Way to stand up for yourself EJ!
My opinion on the subject is… hey, whatever works. I wonder though if tubeless technology is anywhere close to optimized yet? What about better casings (320 tpi) and such?
Finally us latex-phobes will have a low pressure option. Dave the hassle of latex is MUCH greater than the hassle of gluing your tires on. EJ, on the road high pressures are the norm. So the only real advantage of tubulars are lower weight and slightly less rolling resistance.
Off road, tubulars should offer ALL the benefits of tubeless clinchers plus even lower pressures, lighter weight and stronger design.
FYI-I am acutely allergic to latex and my dermatologist has told me if I get in contact with it, I will never have sex again and my hands will blowup! Bring on the tubulars, finally…………………
Willie, beware the tubulars have latex inner tubes!!
“For racing, these arguments are negated because the UCI allows support in races.” This allowance is entirely contrary to the spirit of mountain bike racing (and mountain biking) as I have understood and enjoyed it for the past 20 years. Removing the requirement that riders complete events on the same equipment as they started largely removes the requirement that equipment be durable or field-serviceable, giving those with deep pockets and extensive support an unearned advantage over equally strong and skilled citizen racers. I personally enjoy road riding as well, but mountain bikers worthy of the title ought to fight the ongoing roadification of our sport by bringing back technical courses and rejecting outside assistance.
yea c g but I do not have to touch the latex. Repairing tubes in a sew-up is such a PITA, that it is better/easier to just buy a new tire.
Jeroen and I, in different times mostly, have built similar experience with tubulars.
[brag mode]
I can say I raced Superprestige Elite crosses on them, at the time I was also the Dutch distributor of Tufo. I told them to make MTB tubular, they refused. For the first few years. Until I read in the paper they were making them
[/brag mode]
As much as I’ve discussed exactly what Edge (wide rim) and Geax are doing today, many years ago with the likes of Gary The Man himself and others, and acknowledge the cool factor of it all, I have some “buts”.
- Carbon rims, and especially tubular, if they have any performance gain at all, have no place in racing. It’s rich against poor then, and see where that brought cyclo-cross. It’s doing the same for MTB, super light wheels with spares in the pits. For those with money and support.
- The speed, I am not sure it’s there. From the weight loss, it will not come. Latex tubeless mounted race tires, even in 29″, and the bee’s knees. No pinch flats (tubular’s favorite argument in too-narrow tire context, see pre-’76 Marin County scene). The tubuless tire doens’t have a tube to deform. My proposed tube-less tubulars don’t seem to hit it off too well yet. That would save a gram or two. The way I see it, a tubeless racing ralph has one thin casing to deform, and outstanding grip. How to better that, by adding a tube and chaning the interface at the rim? Stan’s rim lock is great for instance. Otherwise, it would squirt air at all times.
- I may be under-educated and under-talented (especially the latter hass been thrown at me, although I don’t se it), but tubulars are just not that awesome cornering to me. As long as tire tread patterns are offering more choices than tubulars, it will likely stay that way. And you’re back to the cost thing. What’s a bling wheelset worth if you can’t swap to rain tires when the hardpack tires are glued on there? You need a second set. Of carbon fibre tubulars. Just for that one course. You also need a set for sand courses. Life’s too short to have non-terrain specific tires on your bikes. Dugast often creates a selectively available cross tire with the world championship’s course in mind.
Do I want a pair of 30mm Edge wheels mounted with Dugast 50mm tubulars? There were times I could not think of anything I wanted more. I thought of way to make the tubular rim myself, just didn’t follow through (of course).
Will the wheels make me faster? Not faster than a standard Edge wheelset with the 29″ race tires of my choice. Especially not if the weather changes the hour before a race. This guy will be swapping tires. $100 swap, versus $3000. Yes, I have enough bikes to never ever be done putting new wheels in all of them, but that doesn’t make it a good idea to have them.
I wonder how the 30mm rims will work with 35mm tubulars for cross. Yes, brakes…the eternal cross dilemma for me. Never got any noticable decelleration from my carbon tubulars Zipps. That gets scary at times, I’m telling you. Rain, steep hill, sqaure corner halfway down it. Wider rims should allow for yet lower pressures (if you didn’t feel the rim for a whole lap, you’ve put too much air in) and better glue interface. Just might give a BIT of practicality to the insanity that is the cross bike.
Cloxxki’s verdict : way cool, but for ultimate performance, as your personal bike nerd, I’d spend the $3000-4000 otherwise.
Someone with a vested interest in making tubular MTB tires catch on could probably speed the process up by introducing an aluminum rim for tubulars.
@marc @Cloxxki: The “deep pockets” racing is here. It is the way it is now, so until that gets erased, the point about wheel pits and support is moot. (Just for the record, I agree with both of you in regards to the support issue)
@EJ: I am sure that if racers pick up on tubulars and a couple tires start being produced, it will happen. Carbon “unobtanium” stuff will come first, then I see it “trickling down” to the point where privateer expert class racers will be able to afford the technology.
I sure wish Edge would focus their time and energy in coming up with a good tubeless ready 29″ clincher instead of a tubular system useful for a handful of racers. I have heard for some time that one was in the works, but what I hear now is silence. GT, you hear anything different?
Tubeless is really the way to go for 99% of the riders, even on the road. Hutchinson’s road tubeless tires work exceptionally well and are very smooth. I am 180 lbs and run them at 85 psi comfortably.
Good to hear one can ride an $800 carbon rim with a flat tire on a MTB course until they reach the tech zone, especially in a place like Canada and their “tame” MTB courses. . . . .
@Joel: I had heard at Sea Otter that a tubeless rim was on their radar. I wouldn’t expect anything to pop up from them until spring 2010. The Edge guys are big into snow boarding, and the powder is on!
Fort James… exactly. Nobody is going to RIDE a flat tubular except on buff singletrack, two-track, gravel or asphalt. Well, at least I wouldn’t ride one on gnarly terrain (Ted, think ROCK LAKE) on one if I were racing there. Face it, it’d be a long cyclocross race in technical terrain with a flat tubular.
And because I’m Tubular Challenged, how would one reinflate or fix a tubular on the trail in the event of a sidewall tear?
PS — Los, BF Goodrich doesn’t sponsor F1 tires.
I’ll allow everyone to have whatever opinion on tubulars they like, but I built a set of Zipp 303 rims (24mm wide) to 32 hole DT Swiss disc hubs. I got a set of Dugast Rhino’s in 47mm wide, and rode the tubulars all fall.
I’ve have ZTR355 29ers, ZTR Race 29ers, and Bontrager 29ers and none of those wheels were close to my new tubular ones.
Now, I wouldn’t spend a ton of time training on the Dugasts in fear of destroying a $120 tire just riding around, but when it comes to racing the Rhinos grip like crazy but still feel really fast in the straights.
I placed better in races this fall than ever before, but I’m also in better shape.
Did the wheels/tires make me fast? Maybe. But they sure gave me a temporary cure to my bike obsession!
LOL, Brandon.
Bike obsession also can be referred to as G.A.S.
For instance, I have GAS
GAS = Gear Acquisition Syndrome.
I understand that tubulars have a long standing dominance in road racing but would anybody care to inform me who all is racing and winning on MTB tubular tires?…
Tubulars simply ALSO need sealent in there. TUFO have been branding their own mix since before latex-tubeless was properly introduced to MTB. My first conversion I did was with TUFO sealent. TUFO offers this, because their tubulars are closed, and cannot be undone, patches and put together. They found a way to make them this way, and it makes them dead straight.
Good thought on alu tubular rims. In Italy, there’s a rim maker that uses metal tubes, like steel, ti, alu, runs them through a dye to re-shape, and voila: (French, not Italian) a rim “extrusion”, ready to be rolled and welded.
This could be well scaled up. The bigger the rim, the easier to do this, actually. Imgine taking a 31.8mm thin alu tube, and denting it on one side to form the glue channel. 30+mm rim!
Cold setting the tube possibly makes it stronger even.
When the tech really takes off, dedicated tubular rim extrusion will be drawn at the factories.
A good handyman could start making his own alu tubulars right now. The first pair won’t be too light, but it won’t be carbon either. V-Brakes can be used again to save some weight
prphoto – The entire Swisspower team for starters. It’s not at all uncommon to see mountain tubulars at world cup events.
Actually, check out some footage from the Beijing Olympics XC race.
It may start with the elite racers at first but there will be a trickle down effect of some form that the “common” man will just have to wait for.
Edge…get the party rolling and lets see “American” riders on 29rs taking it to them on the world cup!!!
How bout those babes at the world championships riding 29rs to podiums!!!!
@brandonecpt thanks for the knowledge. Yep 1st and 3rd that will get noticed for sure. I did notice that reynolds has a 29er carbon tubular wheelset out. Kabush and Juarez mentioned as riders of.
And fisher crew went this way on certain courses also this year. Like Iceman which sounds like it suited a lightweight wheel choice. (think cyclocross road race)(no run ups that is)
One thing common here these are all teams supplying the equipment.
@brokecyclist sure you could make that point about “formula one” technology showing up at some point but the labor intensive properties of running tubular will render these only for the dedicated or sponsored or moneyed to pay the shop guy to glue them on, for sure somebody is bound to try it out.
I still believe that the carbon clincher is just beginning to gain a foothold in the market. You get most of the advantage of the sew-up with alot less hassle. People want to ride not spend a 1/2 hour a wheel gluing tires(and failing to get them straight, glue all over the rim and then solvents to clean said glue off the rim. The people who do that are looking for every second of advantage to gain, podiums in pro xc racing are hard fought.
@prphoto “I still believe that the carbon clincher is just beginning to gain a foothold in the market. You get most of the advantage of the sew-up with alot less hassle.”
You don’t get the advantages of the tubular with a carbon clincher. You have the same tire profile on a carbon clincher as you do an alloy clincher. A carbon clincher is much heavier than it’s equivalent carbon tubular. The only thing you do get with a carbon clincher that you get with a carbon tubular is a stiffer rim.
I would argue the weight doesn’t matter as much, it’s the tire profile that really makes the carbon tubular stand out. And that you do not get from a carbon clincher.