Interbike 2009: Observations- An Editorial
October 8th, 2009 by Guitar TedGrannygear’s Thoughts On Interbike: Interbike Impressions from our first timer, Grannygear. We let him loose on a few thoughts, ramblings, and trends as only he could see them.
Big wheels are getting a lot of attention. If the Demo Days were an example of what a lot of folks are checking out, riding, and looking into, then 29ers are that and more. Just try and get a bike to ride with big wheels from the more popular brands. It took me 2 days and an early morning to even look at a Marathon 29er Epic. Tall Boys were everywhere, Giant XTC 29ers were buzzing around me, and the bike racks were empty of 29ers at the trailers and tents.
Despite the vocal minority that is clamoring for more and more travel in the 29er world, the sweet spot for 29er full suspension may indeed be 4”. I have felt myself drawn to thoughts of 120mm forks and bigger travel rear suspension bikes for the future but the Epic, the Tall Boy, and although it is a little outside the 4” range, the Rumblefish, showed me that 4” may well be the magic number for a 29er XC/trail bike. In my opinion, unless you do a lot of drops and hucks, for rolling down the trail and UP the trail as well 100mm of travel is enough for 90% of the FS riders out there.
Some manufacturers just don’t get it when it comes to 29er stuff like wheels and rims. Yeah, I know that we want light rims, but there is a lot of interest in a wider rim that allows for a straighter sidewall with fat tires, like 2.2” and up. One new offering from a respected wheel maker not only passed on a wider rim but decided not to build them with a single speed only hub that they offered before. Ahhhh…marketing guys, do you spend any time at all on the 29er forums and chat rooms? And seriously….make it tubeless ready. A conversation with a pretty big tire company went something like this: “Hey, have you improved the casing on the ‘Schwarma’ tire to work better with tubeless conversions? There have been issues with the sidewalls being porous and requiring gymnastics to get them to seal-up”. Deer in the headlights look by product guy, followed by a lecture on setting tubeless tires up properly and how the tires don’t need any changes. I say, “Well, I have read this from many tire users…must have some truth to it.” More blabber about this and that but no honest response on the issue and no interest in knowing about it…and…apparently no changes to the tire although I walked away a bit mystified.
Carbon can be an amazing thing on a mountain bike frame. The few rides I had on the Stumpjumper, the Jamis, and the Tall Boy were eye opening. Stiff in all the right places, yet still less than abusive…man, it rocks as long as rocks don’t ‘rock’ the lovely layers of composite goodness. Besides the cost, carbon only needs to rise above the specter of fragility and the tide will turn in a big way.
But, don’t count out beer can technology. Hydroformed aluminum may not be as sexy as carbon, but it is cheaper, can be shaped, peaked and tweaked like no simple butted tube could dream of, and as I found out when I rode the Scott Scale, can give the carpet fiber bikes a run for their money.
I have had mixed feelings and experiences with Avid brakes recently. I found the customer service of SRAM to be impeccable, but the Juicy 3s I had were problematic and I am not alone here. However most of the bikes I rode at Demo Days were equipped with one version or another of the new Elixir brake. Every one was superb in modulation feel, stopping ability, and best of all…NO NOISE, NO Gobbling. Turkey gobble, exit stage left. And, besides that, the pads now can be changed through the top of the caliper. Yay!
Electric bikes were all over the place at IBike. Who is buying them? Why are they here and what will they do for cycling that non-Ebikes won’t do? I hope to find that out soon when I dive into the world of electrons and spokes.
Are the days of a non-DW/VPP/CVA linked bike numbered? Well, maybe not for pure XC racing or AM/DH but in the wider world of the XC trail bike, I think they are. Propedal is fine for a very digital type of riding experience. By that I mean, turn it on, climb for a long while and then switch it off for the descent. Or crank the Propedal up and leave it on and accept the loss of suppleness and potential travel like a pure XC race bike. But when you are looking to cover the countryside over all kinds of terrain where flipping a Propedal lever all the time is not fun, the new gen of bikes like the Santa Cruz Tall Boy come out and just rule the day. I was beginning to think you cannot have it all, but you can now. The Specialized Epic Marathon 29er gave me the same epiphany, but with the platform Brain shock making the magic happen. Soon no one will accept the spin from companies saying how their traditional 4 bar bike can do it all with Propedal and buyers will be shopping elsewhere for a XC/endurance/weekend bike ride.
2X9 (or 2X10) shifting set ups are very cool. I have been running a traditional 3X crank with no big ring for quite a while and it works for me. I rarely miss the big ring and I like the shorter chain length and snappy front shifting. It is either up or down. No up-up or down-down. So on several of the more race oriented hardtails, I came to appreciate the 2 ring front set up. In the ‘Big Ring’ you can still get all the cassette if you need it and at Bootleg, I never even got into the small ring at all. Would I like it so much in the long, steep climbs? Not sure. With the debut of the 12-36 cassette (and the 10 speed 11-36), a 26/39 equipped crank is pretty low and on a light race bike and under a fit rider, would likely do it all.
That’s a wrap on Interbike 2009. (Really! We promise!) Thanks for checking out our coverage and we hope you all enjoyed it. Guitar Ted
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Thanks to GT for getting GG involved – a really solid addition to the blog. This one touches on everything near and dear – 2×9 (10) seems a true advantage – you’ll need to help us understand how to do it without the jaw-dropping expense of XX (did you get the Jenson ad?!). I am an SRAM devotee and know XX is a great product, but …
How would Rumblefish and Tallboy stack up in a trailbike comparison? Hydro’ed Al vs. carbon, VPP vs. the new Fox double valve shock, etc.? I have come to agree with Grannygear on the lack of necessity for a big hit WFO or PBJ for my level of trail riding, but that still leaves a lot of choices.
Finally, thanks on the remarks about clueless wheel and tire manufacturers. We need better tubeless solutions, especially in the area of bigger volume, lighter weight, trail and AM-capable rigs.
@Lee T Well, thanks for the kind words. If you can stand the loss in a taller gear…or a lower gear, then 2×9 with one of the lesser priced (albeit heavier) cranks that are 2x specific is a good way to go. I bet GT has that crank info in his spacious and well organized brain, but I recall there are going to be some choices in cranks soon.
But, the issue is getting the wider ratio that the 10 speed stuff provides: 11-36 is pretty useful but I lament the wimpy chains and close ratios that go along with it as it is not the best choice for longevity or bad weather conditions. With a 9 speed rear cassette and a 2×9 crank, you will have to give up either the 36 tooth cog or the 11 tooth cog and that means some compromise somewhere. For where I live, I would make do with a 12-36 cassette and a 26/39 (or whatever…but a 26 tooth min small) and that would be OK, but not perfect, especially if I was fragged and the hours were piling up along with the elevation profile for the day.
So, if I was racing a light and fast hardtail I would go for it with a 2×9 front and 12-36 rear, especially if Shimano upgrades that cassette into the XT level of stuff. I would lose some low gears, but I would just have to pedal harder. For where I live, i would not make that same choice for my FS. Not enough granny there for me.
As far as the cost of things, especially after the initial purchase, I blogged about that a while ago. http://vintageone.blogspot.com/2009/07/aftercost-of-things.html
grannygear
GG and GT. I’m seriously considering the Salsa Big Mama as my next bike. The only full sus bike I’ve owned is the DW-Link Iron Horse MKIII (two generations) and wanted your opinion on the Big Mama pedalling efficiency compared to the DW/CVA/DPP type bikes. I’d love to own a Tall Boy but can get the Big Mama for less than half the cost.
Thanks.
@jeff
Well, GT actually owns a Big Mama but I have had more saddle time on the DW/VPP/CVA stuff than I think he has. That said, my only time on the Salsa was at Demo Days 2008 where I found the bike needed less Propedal than most other bikes of its type (suspension design wise). There is something about the way they designed that bike that provides a ‘platform like’ pedaling performance, not to the extent of the DW stuff, but I think the snappier response to pedaling of the Big Mama is nearly as big a plus as anything else a virtual axle path bike would do for ya.
It was my 2nd favorite bike from last years Demo Days and topped only by the DW Sultan which, I might add, had more travel than I need for where I live.
I do think the long chainstays on the Big Mama are suspect, at least on paper, but they do not seem to have caused any hate mail that I have read and the bike was pretty easy to get the front end up on the trail.
I do not think the Tall Boy is twice as good as a Big Mama. A Tall Boy is what you buy when the cost is not an issue and you just want one.
grannygear
@Jeff: Grannygear hit all the highlights there, but I’ll expound a bit and tell you that the reason I think the Big Mama pedals so well is due to their using the seat stays as part of the spring for the suspension.
Think of the seat stays in terms of the old leaf springs in cars and I think it starts to make sense. Or, you could certainly draw a parralel with Fox’s Boost Valve technology. All do basically the same thing. When you put the power down, the weight shift is to the rear and downwards. The seat stays help resist this motion, much like the leaf springs in an old rear wheel drive car, or like Fox’s Boost Valve. Certainly, this works in conjunction with your sag setting, and if you don’t get that right, you lose that sensation on the Big Mama, but just follow Salsa’s recommendo on their website, and you’ll be golden.
Anyway, the seat stays do not have rebound control, so they want to get back to their static position as soon as possible. This means that you feel a solid sensation when pedalling instead of the bike getting into the beginnings of the travel range, as in some bikes without ProPedal on. So in a way, the Big Mama has “pro pedal” all the time without using it in the damper. This frees up the damper to do its job, much like Specialized’s “Brain” system, but without clunks and noises.
The long chain stays are sort of a conundrum with the Big Mama. They are there, but the bike rides nothing like the measurement might lead you to believe. It feels much like sub 18 inch full suspension rigs I’ve ridden. The front end lofts easily, and climbing is a no brainer as long as you’ve got the legs and lungs.
So that’s my take on the Big Mama. It’s a fun rig, and a great value for the build quality and how it performs.
Hey Granny –
Lee asked a question above – I’ve got the same one – any direct comparisons on the Tall boy vs rumblefish? Did the rumblefish climb as well on steep in the face type stuff, or did it bog down low in its travel in this type of terrain. Taking seated climbing. You mentioned the rumble felt better when standing but you can’t stand for 30 min long butt on saddle nose super steep pitches of trail.
Your former comments would imply that the rumble was a second place climber, but a better descender than the tallboy -is this true? did the rumble & tallboy both feel accurate on the dh of did they feel boatish?
@JJJ uuuuhhhhhh….let me see. I never got into any steep, perched on the nose climbing in the courses at Bootleg. To me, the Rumblefish felt lazy when sitting and pedaling, but surprisingly responsive when standing. Overall, it was very reasonable for a bike with that kind of travel. I know that it is not a 5″ rear suspension on that bike, but it sure felt like it to me.
The Rumblefish was a better trail bike. The Tall Boy was a better XC bike. I would take the Rumblefish to Moab or Downeyville. I would take the Tall Boy to a back country 50 mile point to point or a 12 hour endurance race.
You could take either bike anywhere…if you see what I mean…but there is a point of departure where one comes into its own over the other.
Honestly, the ‘Fish is the better weekend warrior bike for the masses, especially if you are riding with a group of guys on 26″ wheeled 5″ and 6″ travel bikes. The ABP is the real deal as well. Me…I like a bit less travel and a faster and firmer ride overall but that comes from the terrain I ride and the hours of SS riding I do.
grannygear
I am SO happy about the return of the mtb double! I’m still rocking the old, lower-end Cannondale octlink double cranks, and they’re NOT getting any stiffer. I’m hooked on the chainline that a true double crankset provides. I foresee a fancy double crankset in my near future. Thanks for helping to support this movement!
Also: I gave up on the tire manufacturers a few years ago. I feel your pain Grannygear.
Like the look of the carbon niner, lot’s of pics but no reviews yet ? r u getting a ride on one soon ?
@David Bolam: The Carbon Air 9 will not be available until later in the winter. The bike was shown at Interbike and there are a few pre-production prototypes being ridden by the Niner Team and employees, but nothing yet for us to test.
@Grannygear: in regards to the VPP/CVA/DW-link; is ABP part of the problem or solution in your eyes?
@simenf Well since the ABP is only on the Fisher (or Trek) bikes as far as I know, it does not relate to the virtual pivot point type bikes.
However, I was quite impressed on how the ABP kept the rear wheel hooked up and tracking the dirt under heavy braking, pretty much defying me to lock up the rear wheel under conditions that had other bikes skipping like a stone across the water under the same conditions. If it has bad habits that go along with it, I could not ferret that out in the 30 minute ride at Bootleg.
grannygear
@ Lee T
Double chainrings don’t have to be expensive. The new SLX cranks are pretty sweet. and available in a double. I have one on my new trailbike (a WFO9). It has a wide range of 36-22.