Well, here was an unexpected treat. First off, Chris King’s own Cielo brand made a few one off 29″er rigs to go to employees. Then they got noticed at Eurobike. Then Cielo shows a couple at Interbike’s Outdoor Demo. That’s where I came in, wandering around trying to find a size large bike to demo, and Chris DeStefano of Chris King says, “Why don’t you try the Cielo?” Well, I jumped at the chance.
Interbike’s Outdoor Demo isn’t exactly the place one looks for a custom hand made 29″er. That would be more the realm of the North American Handmade Bicycle Show. But here I was, having Jay Sycip setting me up on the Cielo and sending me off with a warning of “Don’t fall in love with it!”
The bike is a single speed, of course, and stomping on the pedals resulted in great acceleration. The bike was much like the Raleigh XXIX Pro. Great steel ride, only refined,if that makes any sense. The frame had the S&S Couplers, but to be honest, they were never noticed while riding the bike. That’s a good thing, by the way.
Of course, the bike was set up with Chris King components including the new Inset head set which was surrounded by cool stainless steel high lights. Nice! But you would expect nice touches like that on a high end steel rig. The parts all did what they were supposed to do, and the geometry was great with nice, neutral handling and a rear wheel that stayed planted during out of the saddle grunts.
I have to say that the bike got some heads turning out on the trail too, which was fun. I was certainly priveledged, since there are probably only four Cielo 29″ers in existence at the moment. One thing is for sure, there will be alot more of them once folks find out how sweet these rigs ride.
When I came back, Jay asked, “Well, did ya fall in love?”
I am a single speed nut, and I love steel single speeds, so you know I fell for this bike hook, line, and sinker. Jay said, “I warned you!
Yes. Yes he did. But I don’t regret riding that Cielo one little bit!
Blah…..A steel ss 29er
@Big620: Well, this isn’t your garden variety Karate Monkey/Monocog steel, but if you don’t get that, then anything else I write will just be lost on you. It isn’t for everybody, and I get that, but I think an appreciation for the skill and level of craftsmanship along with the quality of materials here takes this “steel single speed” above the level of “blah”. YMMV
Nice ride. Thanks for the report GT.
Nice detail touches on that ride. Looks nice, although I don’t like the battleship gray paint nor the 3,000 vertical feet of headset spacers.
But Gitfiddle Ted… please expound upon the differences between “el cheapo” steel rides like the MC 29er (not the Flight) and the 853/Deddicai/Columbus, etc bikes with “high-end’ steel. If you can describe it, please do.
I’ve often read statements like yours, but they end there. It’s usually something like “You’ve got to experience it yourself,” which does not give us mere mortals who don’t get to test 100 different bikes much to go on.
Thanks GT. A recent search I did seems to suggest that the lightweight steel frame is becoming the domain of the smaller builder. Raliegh and Jamis are the only ones that I found to market a 4lb-ish 29 frame. And if I was going to guess they are being sourced from Hodaka, (Thats a good thing)
If Jay Sycip is building these shouldn’t we call them King-cips? Or Sip-Kings?
Anyway nice bike I’m sure it’ll cost about one million dollars. Carry on Ted!
@Dave: Ha ha! Fair enough! I’ll try, but please excuse any references to hackneyed cliches.
The cheaper steel bikes can be quite nice, so let’s give them their due. That said, the frames on these higher end bikes have a smoothness, and springiness that if done right, seem to give back a feel to the rider that seems to propel you forward. Also, a bit of comfort is gained from this phenomenon as well.
Interestingly, the “propeller-head, geek-out mag, “Bicycle Quarterly”, seems to agree. They have found that a flexy steel frame is more comfortable than a stiff, unforgiving one. Citing “suspension losses” (you’d have to wade through several pages of geekdom to figure the term out) they claim that stiff frames make riders have to absorb more energy and therefore makes them less efficient and slower. (I am paraphrasing what I’ve seen, so excuse any inaccuracies)
At any rate, the ride quality of a steel frame that is made with great skill, experience, and uses nicely butted tubing correctly will get you this benefit. Obviously, a hard tail or fully rigid rig stands to benefit most here, so FS freaks need not apply.
Cheaper, mass produced frames that use butting profiles that are not tuned to sizes or specific riders will miss the mark slightly, or in worst case scenarios, be really bad. That said, the differences are like judging wine. Not everyone will see the subtleties and some folks will see glaring differences.
I hope that helps, but really, you do have to experience it for yourself to truly appreciate this.
Lol… I sort of expected that.
Thanks for taking a swing at that. The smooth and responsive comments are the interesting ones.
My only experience with 853 is a mass-produced road bike frame where only the 3 main tubes were 853. Since it was my first road bike in years, it seemed nice. Until I switched to carbon: lighter, stiffer in the BB, yet a more compliant and muted ride. Expansion joints were less harsh.
I guess it’s possible I’d encounter something similar if I went from my straight-gauge MC 29er to something more optimized. It would be nice to A/B the MC 29er and something with better tubing/butting, but I don’t think I will have that luxury.
Which brings up another question: How does one go about trying something like this other than the outside chance of having a buddy with a high-end bike that just happens to be the same size?
Most shops don’t have a bevy of 29ers period, much less a fleet that you can rent to try something out and beat it on the trails. Even less likely with a Cielo or other custom builders. (or maybe I’m wrong?).
The reason for my questions is this: My MC29er is too small. I will sell it. But replacing it may involve ebay, or it might involve a custom builder (not all have outrageous pricing). Either way, I will make a change. (staying SS and rigid)
Not sure to what yet.
Speaking of steel hardtails….I noticed a photo that seems to show an OS blackbuck:
flickr.com/photos/ellyblue/3946450772/in/set-72157622434144330/
(I cut off the first part of the link so this post doesn’t get rejected, just add http//:www. to the beginning)
Know any more?
Also, if I may re-paraphrase the Bicycle Quarterly article, they basically proved that a stiffer frame is not always better. Naturally the term “always” seems like an easy thing to disprove, but it’s pretty hard to do it within any sort of margin of error and scientific method and nail it down to frame stiffness making the difference. But they did, and over the course of their test, under their three riders, it was shown that the more flexible bikes were faster and/or required less effort to pedal at a given pace.
This is huge. It’s basically a given in any mainstream mag that a stiffer bike is a better bike, period. It’s such a huge assumption that it goes unnoticed and is treated like a known, agreed-upon thing.
BQ specifically states that this DOES NOT mean that a more flexible bike is always better. Perhaps for a different set of riders or a different test course the stiffer bike would be preferable.
Why? They don’t KNOW, but they have their theories. One is that basically a more flexible frame acts like a spring, storing energy and returning it as forward motion. They hypothesize that when a rider’s cadence and pedaling style match up well with the flexibility of a bike they two sort of get in sync where this flex-spring-energy-stored-energy-returned works with a rider rather than against them.
Note that their test bikes were steel road bikes, with identical everything, but with the wall thickness of the tube set accounting for the stiffness difference. How this relates to “vertical compliance” vs. “lateral stiffness” as the manufacturers like to call it is anybodys’ guess. They did test a “softtail” road bike(Trek 2100, I think) with different hardness elastomers, plus a solid block, and definitely noticed a difference in performance, but that wasn’t part of any formal scientific test( but I might note was just as valid as any other bike mag’s reviews -based on the reviewers impressions).
That was a long summary, and I’m paraphrasing, too, but I feel the subject is interesting and it’s important to be clear on what they did and did not show in their tests.
@Dave: Well, you hit a sore spot with 29″ers that is getting better, but still is a big problem. The lack of test rides. Of course, demo trucks and events criss cross the nation now, but back in 2003, when I bought my Karate Monkey, you bought a bike on blind faith with 29 inch wheels. It still is the case with lots of these bikes yet today.
That said, a custom builder that you build a rapport with should be able to get you something very close to the mark, if not spot on. Be careful to research your choices, but it can be a very good way to go.
Obviously, a shop with 29″ers will have mostly mid level 29″ers unless you hit a shop that is making a name with big wheelers. Check around, you may be surprised. Put your feelers out for other 29″er freaks in your area. Many would love to share their ride and trails with you.
Other than that- it’s a leap of faith that has its risks and potential rewards.
@jimmythefly: Great comment. Thanks! I thought this was really close to the mark- in regards to steel bikes-
“They hypothesize that when a rider’s cadence and pedaling style match up well with the flexibility of a bike they two sort of get in sync where this flex-spring-energy-stored-energy-returned works with a rider rather than against them. ”
I think the “magic” is getting the two “in sync”- the rider and the frame- and when that happens, it is the feeling writers have tried to describe ad infinitum.
Some may scoff at all of this, but as you say, Bicycle Quarterly does take pains to be as objective about it as they can. That said, I think it is fairly obvious where they are coming from in regards to what the editorial staff thinks is the “ideal bike” for riding long distances on. Even taking that bias into account, the evidence is very convincing in regards to rider comfort, tires and pressures, and frame flex.
@prphoto – have you not looked at the Niner SIR or MCR?
They sell 853 frames that also have a magic essence.
GT – as a carbon and steel 29er owner I think I can join the ranks of supporters for what you are describing.
With a well built and stiff (in terms of BB, downtube and CS flex) carbon frame you get a uniform responce at all power outputs and a consistent feedback from your ride but with a quality but somewhat flexy steel frame you almost always get that ‘spring recoil’ effect at certain efforts and cadences.
I too have no idea where it comes from but, based on current road bike reviewers theories, my steel frame should not be able to accellerate forwards at all !
The way I see it is a quality carbon frame = a super performance; a quality steel frame = a special performance.
GT, I love your excellent analogy to the tasting of wine – a lot of people will just never ‘get it’.
@professed True that! There are still many great steel bikes being made it just seems that they are going up in price and down in sales and therefore down in production, nothin scientific to back this up. We agree in total re steel and carbon, but steel is still more durable which still means something. BTW anybody ever see a 29er made with True Temper S3? dreamin..
@jimmythefly If you want to apply Hooke’s Law to steel frames there is your proof.
@GT at our shop the boss won’t carry anything below Cobia, still waiting for our Superfly 100…
next time you are in NorCal stop by for a glass of red, thanks again for the reviews.
Meh……In the end its steel more of the same………Blurp
@Big629: Well, again- If you don’t like it, fine. I get that. That said, you are dead wrong about it being “more of the same”.
Great report. What a beautiful bike (what else would you expect from Chris King?)
What size fork was that 80mm or 100mm?
@roybus: That was an 80mm Fox F-29 QR15 with the FIT damper.
What do you ride Big 629? I feel that the description “flex-spring-energy-stored-energy-returned works with a rider rather than against them” is about the best description of what I feel when riding my Misfit Fe. I’ve struggled to describe the ride of my bike to friends, other than saying it’s awesome. Got a Salsa Cro-moto Grande fork on the front. The ride is incredible. Maybe you should try one Big 629.