Interbike 2009: Ride Report- Santa Cruz Tall Boy
September 28th, 2009 by Guitar TedGrannygear and I shared some time on the new Santa Cruz Tall Boy at the Outdoor Demo. Here’s the scoop from Grannygear’s perspective on the bike I already gave Best Of Show honors to.
Santa Cruz Tall Boy: If there was one bike that I was most interested in riding, it was this one. It represents what is hot in 29ers right now: Carbon, the VPP link suspension, 100mm of travel, tapered steerer, 15mm QR fork, etc, all wrapped up in a sexy and sleek package. I had ridden other bikes before that I would be comparing this to. The Niner JET and RIP, the Pivot 429 and the DW Sultan had all seen some trail time in my hands and pretty much without exception (the JET being the standout here) all the bikes had left one strong (and negative) impression on me among all the good stuff: when I rose out of the saddle and pedaled aggressively….they felt like I was dragging something behind me. Weird. I figured it was just me because I had never heard anyone else say the same thing.
But let’s get back to this later. For now, back to the Demo. Off I went into the hills of Bootleg on the flat black Tall Boy. I liked it immediately. I was riding an XL and it was a big bike, especially with the longish stem that was spec’d on it. I would swap that for a 90mm version and the XL would have been right in the zone for my 6’2” bod. I do like a bigger bike rather than a smaller one, so I typically go to the next size up. It pedaled really smartly seated and when I stood, it just went like a bike should. Oooooo. I like. No draggy feeling. The bike was very well balanced with the 100mm Fox fork and it just whupped on the XC course at Bootleg. Seriously, I loved it. It was solid, smooth, lively, and I can envision sitting on this bike for hours and just covering lots of ground. What a great endurance bike. I hope to have one before the year is out for an extended test, so keep your eyes open for that.
Back to the acceleration thing. Mike Ferrentino, marketing guy for Santa Cruz asked me what I thought about the bike, specifically how it compared to the other ‘link’ bikes in this arena. I mentioned that in the past there had been that phenomenon I felt where, under standing and pedaling, it felt like I was dragging something behind me. No bob, no drama…it just felt uninspiring. He knew exactly what I meant and, in fact, the engineers that were tweaking the Tall Boy had a name for it. They talked about ‘dragging the cinder block’. The Tall Boy was the first bike, other than the JET to leave me with a positive impression when I stood and got on the gas (and the JET is a bit below the overall trail ability of the Tall Boy).
In my opinion, and there will be other great bikes coming out this year, the Tall Boy will set a high mark to shoot for in the 4” 29er category.
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Thanks for the write up GT and for answering all those pesky questions over at mtbr.
GT do not think you are alone with the dragging the cinder block feeling. It is that exact feeling that made me get rid of my 2003 Blur and traded it for a 2006 2:1 ratio single pivot Foes FXR. Every VPP or CVA type bike has given me that feeling. Thus I tend to favor single pivot FS. I have also felt this feeling on some 4 bar linkage bikes. I do not perceive this feel on a Horst links designs. However based on what you have said about the Tallboy I may be encouraged to buy one when they come out with an Aluminium. I say this because I live in AZ and our trails here are a carbon fiber catastrophe waiting to happen, because whenever you crash in AZ there is always a boulder near by waiting to dent or scuff your frame.
damn all these positive reviews encouraging a large monetary transfer from my bank account to santa cruz
@dcarterdman
Actually it was my experience with the ‘cinder block’ feeling, not GTs, but no matter. You are only other person I have heard mention this (other than Mike Ferrentino). It makes me feel so validated!
I understand your concerns about the rocks and carbon. If that is off-putting for ya and alu is far in the future, look at the Specy Epic Marathon. It gives the Tall Boy a run for its money.
grannygear
Nice… That’s a good way to describe it. The Tallboy certainly is an interesting bike… It’d be fun to see one at the Ballyhoo!
GG, I demoed an 09 FSR 29er and it was nice on everything until I stood up to climb out of an wash and then it felt like I could not get any power transfer. I do not know if it was geometry or proper shock adjustment. I am considering the following bikes but I think I will wait till I can find out more about them. Foes b-29 I figure it will ride similar to my FXR, Salsa Big mama, Titus Rockstar Al, I know it has a carbon fiber rear triangle but I may make that gamble anyway and Gary Fisher Rumblefish. I will be looking for your reviews on these in the future.
also gg there are a couple of local shops here in the Phoenix area that describe the cinderblock feeling but they just call it something else. I am glad that SC can admit this and that they have engineered it out of their new design. I am a big rider so I think my weight may amplify this feeling specifically when climbing. I think it has to due with where the bike is settled in its travel if you are out of the sweet spot while climbing I believe this is that feeling comes from. GG do you and GT recall if you sensed this feeling on the Salsa Big Mama?
@dcarterdman
Try the Epic Marathon 29er. Did the FSR you rode have a Brain shock? For me that makes the HL design into another beast altogether, from saggy and soggy to snappy and smooth.
I absolutely did not feel that draggy-ness on the Big Mama.
grannygear
the FSR I rode did not have the brain, so I guess that is why it did not work for me. Well that is good to know about the Big Mama it is a essentially a single pivot design with a twist.
@dcarterdman: Just to add: There is a comprhensive Big Mama review on the site, if you want to check it out. Just use the search function in the right sidebar. Also, I will say that in my experience, if you set up the Big Mama according to Salsa’s suggestions, it will not have the “dragging the cinder block feeling” at all. Very snappy accelleration, actually.
I will also add that the HL is helped immensely by the Brain, having ridden a non-brain HL bike extensively at one time. The Epic Marathon is a great riding bike. By the way, we should also be getting a Rumblefish to review soon, so look for that coming up.
thank you for your response, BTW will you be getting a Foes B-29 anytime soon
I am supposed to be riding a B-29 but it has not happened yet. Soon, I hope.
grannygear
The problem that I have noticed with a lot of the link bikes is the weird leverage curves. Firm at the beginning, wallowy in the middle, and then either firm at the end or linear. They just feel inconsistent and unpredictable to me. That is one reason why single pivots appeal to me because they tend to be quite linear and smooth. Anyone else noticed the leverage curve stuff I mentioned?
Hi GT, thanks for nice review…but, what do you think…is better from your view…this tallboy or superfly 100? (one of them will be next step after my present HiFi 29). ;o)
shop mechanic, I think we are all talking about the same thing Santa Cruz talks about, GG talks about it, I have perceived it also; however I think your specific description is the best explanation of what SantaCruz call dragging a cinder block. This is how I came to notice this dragging a cinder feeling. I owned a 2003 blur for 3 years and thought it was the best thing since sliced bread. Then I bought an Orange Patriot single pivot for freeriding, I liked the bike so much I rode it for about a month straight for everything. Then after about month i rode my blur and immediately I could not stand the way the bike felt anymore. So it was then I went back to a Single Pivot design. So that is how I ended up buying the 2006 FXR. But now that I am aware of the phenomenon it drives me crazy every time I get on link type bike.
Note I have not perceived that feeling on HL designs either; which is why after some research I am almost sure I will be buying a Titus Rockstar it has the best of everything I am looking for 2:1 leverage ratio, tapered head tube, 4 inch travel, reasonable weight, and if it is anything like the Racer X it should climb well. But most of all it looks good!
All roads point to this bike and this bike can point to all roads IMHO
clearly the extra coin this wil lput me back is worth every penny compared to any othe bike close to it
and a XXL too. word
GT- Thanks for the report. Quick question- my one concern on this bike is the short head tube. How big of a drop did you have from the saddle to the bars? From the picture it doesn’t look like much. Did you see any bean poles like me (6′6″) riding the XXLs? I’m worried that I’m going to have to run three inches of spacers to be comfortable with a 4.7″ headtube.
@Me: Well, the example Grannygear and I rode was an XL, which put the saddle about level with the bars. Grannygear is 6′2″ and I’m 6′1″. I normally ride Larges, and Grannygear normally rides XL’s although we both can go a size smaller on some rigs. (We’re Tweeners!)
I didn’t think the head tubes were anything out of the norm. Unless you have an unusually long torso, I think you should be fine.
Grannygear,
What’s your rationale for going a size up on most bikes if you’re between a L and XL? I know you said 6-2… long torso?
Thx
@dave Well, I do have long arms, but I prefer to be stretched out a bit. If I am on a bike that is ‘too much’ one way or another, like what can happen at a demo, I typically go for the next size up.
IIRC, the Tall Boy is a 24″TT in a LG or a 25ish one in the XL. 24″ is pretty short for me so I went up to the XL. I typically ride a 24.5 to 25″ TT depending on all kinds of things….ST angle, stem length, etc. The Tall boy actually had a pretty generous stem on it.
Another note. A 6′4″ friend rode the XXL and felt it was really big feeling. Should be great for the really big tall folks out there.
grannygear
Thanks for the feedback. I think that 24.5 to 25 would be what I’m looking for in my next frame. When I take total length (TT and stem) into account, that’s where it would put me. I rode a long TT, 90 stem on my old 26er and liked it. I was looking for real-world feedback on that topic in a 29er context so when I spotted it here, I had to ask.
Thanks for sharing your opinion.
–Dave
Crap, sorry GT, but I forgot to ask- what is the tire clearance like? I haven’t seen anyone address this issue yet. Those Kenda SB8s are pretty narrow and I would ride something much meatier . . . Thanks again for the report!
@Me: I am pretty sure any 2.4″er would fit, but with minimal mud clearance. We’ll take a closer look at that when Grannygear gets a test bike in.
@Me I may have a pic of that tire clearance on the Tall Boy. I will check.
grannygear
Sounds like a marvelous machine. A check of the geometry and critical measurements reveals that this bike is VERY similar to my ti racer-x, comparing my L to their XL. Head and seat tube angles are identical, Tall Boy bb is .2″ higher, top tube .25″ longer, chainstay .5″ shorter, wheelbase identical, 1″ more rear travel. When are you going to throw a leg over a racer-x to see how it compares? I think you’d discover another gem.
Love your site, thanks.
John
Sisters OR
GG, how does the tallboy compare directly to the jet and the rip? After reading your review last year of the jet vs the rip it sounds like the tallboy’s abilities fall somewhere between the two, is this a fair assumption or is it closer to one than the other? Thanks
@mukiwa I think that is fair to say…that it lands somewhere in the middle. The JET I rode was the most racy feeling of any of the virtual pivot type bikes that I been on to date, but I would not want it for a trail bike, even for the mildish conditions where I live. The Tall boy is more do it all, but the RIP will be more at home on steeper and rougher stuff. Ya know?
grannygear
Hey GG. I’m 6′1″ 220lbs with a 34 inch inseam (long legs and shorter torso). I’m ordering the Tall boy frame on line and building it up at my local bike shop. Based on your experience, would you recommend a large or an extra large frame for my body type?
@Newton: If you don’t mind, I will answer this one, as you sound like you are very close to my measurements and I also rode the same bike that GG rode.
When I switched off with GG, I was expecting the XL to fit me poorly. Amazingly, it wasn’t bad. That said, I was stretched out! I might have been okay with a stubby stem, but that wouldn’t have been optimal. I would think I would have been better off on a Large myself.
Again, my measurements match yours to a “T” with the exception that I am a slight bit heavier than you.
Thanks Guitar Ted. That’s exactly the kind of information I needed to hone in on a decision. I”m getting the Large.When I’m spending 5 to 6K on a bike, I don’t want it to be not “bad” or feel ’stretched out’. I want it to be PERFECT. Seems clear the best way to a achieve perfect fit and balance for my size on that bike is to start with a large and build from there. Thanks again.
Guitar Ted and Grannygear, I’m 6′ 4″ with a 37″ inseam, my current bike has a 25.25″ top tube with a 120mm stem and laid back thomson seat post with the saddle back as far as it can go . I like this set up and don’t want to go any shorter. Bearing this in mind I was thinking of going for the xxl frame and maybe a shorter stem ( which might improve handling). Do you agree with this ?
@mukiwa Wow. 37″ inseam. The stats on you and the way you run your saddle sure seem to point to you towards an XXL. If I would have been running a 90mm stem, the 25″ long TT on the XL would have fit me pretty perfectly at 6′2″ and 34″ inseam. As it was, the demo bikes seemed to be spec’ d with a longish stem and it was slightly rangy feeling for me.
Bike fit is such a personal thing though…hard to call from a distance.
grannygear
Hi, I need some advice. I live in Australia so demoing a Tallboy or Rip 9 isn’t possible. I live on a mountain range so there are lots of ups and downs, making climbing and descending equally important. I love trail riding and single track, but a two foot drop or jump is about as extreme as I get. I also race two or three 50-100km endurance races a year that I try to be competitve in for my age group. Given my circumstances and your experience with the Tallboy and the Rip 9, which of these bikes do you think would be best suited to my needs? Thanks.
@Dave: I have ridden both and for your stated purposes I would give the nod to the Tall Boy. It will feel much snappier on climbs than a R.I.P.9 and will be better suited to an XC/Trail sort of riding style.
Hi Guys,
Made the plunge and purchased the Tall Boy size large in black. Could use some advice regarding the build out. Please recall I’m 6′1″ tall and 220 lbs. and ride mostly single track and fire roads with occasional technical sections and knarly downhill but I’m not a jumper or big hit downhill guy (if I can help it). I decided on the Fox Float rear shock. Trying to decide about the front fork and the wheels.
I’ll likely go with either the Fox 32 F29 RLC FIT Taper 15QR -2010 or White Brother front fork (probably the Fox but your input is welcome) but I can’t decide about 100 or 120 for the travel. The Fox 100 and 120 are listed at the same weight. Any guidance?
Regarding the wheels, I’ve eaten taco before so I’m always wary about too light a wheel especially with the larger diameter on the 29ers.Deciding between Industry 9 wheels or custom build with Chris King ISO 32 hubs and would love your input. But the bigger question: I’m considering going to an all mountain rim (Stans or the Salsa G) but don’t want to add extra rotating weight if it’s really not necessary. You’re input would be much appreciated.
Thanks,
Newton
@Newton: Congrats! I’m envious, that’s a great platform to start out with!
Fork: The through axle is a great idea, and in my mind, the Fox FIT damper seemed to really be better than the previous Fox damper, (and that wasn’t bad), because it felt smoother, and it also seemed to get better quality travel while using up most of it on my demo rides. I thought the ‘09 Fox was tough to get all the travel out of without making compromises.
White makes a stellar fork, but it takes a while to break it in and requires a level of commitment to fiddling with it to tune it.
My recommendation would be to go with the Fox, myself. Especially if fork tuning isn’t your cup o tea.
Wheels: I have examples of both hubs you mention and both are excellent. Really no way you can go wrong with either. My inclination would be to choose the I-9 type that requires traditional spokes, or go Chris King. While the aluminum I-9 spokes are trouble free for me, (again, I own two sets that are SS specific and have spent significant time on two other sets) , I would prefer to use more readily available technology that works just fine. Their really doesn’t seem to be a big benefit to going with the aluminum spokes, in my opinion, other than fashion.
Rims: If it were my bike, I probably would have to opt for Stan’s Flow rims, just because going tubeless is a high priority for me. That or Bontrager Dusters.
Hope that helps!
That helps greatly. Thanks very much Guitar Ted. The Stan Flow rim looks like the perfect balance between weight and strength. I also like your sensible suggestion about going with traditional spokes, and have decided to pair them with the more ‘traditional’ Chris Kings. I’ve heard alot of good stuff about the 1-9’s but Chris Kings have performed perfectly for me and I see them mating better with traditional spokes.
You’ve been so generous with your advice I feel sheepish about asking for more, but I’m still torn about the choice of travel length on the front shock. I’ve decided on the Fox, but the jury is still out on wheter to go with the 100’s or 120’s, With both weighing in identically, is there any downside to going with the 120’s?
Gratefully,
Newton
@Newton: Doh!! I forgot about the travel question! Okay………….
Well, a longer travel fork is going to be………….well…………”longer”.
So, what you have to be careful with is that you don’t get a geometry that you won’t be happy with. Let’s say you go with the 120mm fork. The Santa Cruz was designed around a 100mm travel fork. What happens is that you will have a slightly slacker head angle, and a higher bottom bracket, not to mention how it will affect steering geometry. Essentially it will cause the bike to feel more stable/slow steering at the very least and might also cause other issues with climbing (wheel wandering/flop) and suspension balance.
Conversely you might just get on with a bike that feels more “trail” than “XC”, which is what you’d get with a longer fork. I would ask Santa Cruz for the final word on the subject, but if they are putting the bike out as a 100mm travel rig, my thinking is that they feel that length fork is ideal for the geometry they think works best with their design.
And for your stated purposes, 100mm travel sounds spot on. Me? I’d stick to the 100mm fork.
Thanks for all your kind words. Glad I could be of some help!
Thanks again Guitar Ted. After considering your thoughts, I see no good reason to tinker with the angles the bike was designed for. My concern was making sure to have enough cush for the occasional downhill drop, but then again…that’s part of what you get with a 29 inch wheel…more travel feel with less actual travel.
I really appreciate you input and can’t wait to put the rig together.
Best,
Newton
Hey GT, I was wondering if you have ever had a chance to ride the Pivot Mach 429 ( i haven’t found a review on your site)? And if so, could you compare that to your ride on the Tallboy. I find myself among the numerous unfortunate Niner owners that had to have their Jet 9 recalled (mine cracked at the headtube reinforcement) and are left stranded. I am considering switching to either the Tallboy or 429. The lack of demo availability for both is troubling me so I am looking for as much rider experience input as possible. I am looking for a race bike that could be at home on xc courses and out on 60+ rides/24hour races. I really liked my Jet 9, but I have serious doubts about Niner now.
Thanks
@ SunDevilracer: Have you considered the Fisher Superfly 100? I recently went to the Trek/Fisher Demo Days that stopped in my area and the handful of guys that rode the Superfly 100 couldn’t stop talking about how awesome the bike was. At around $5.5G’s, it’s certainly not cheap. It appears Fisher’s race team has done quite well racing on it this year.
I’m in the same boat about the Pivot Mach 429 and the TB as the SunDevilracer. I would love to hear any comparisons
I am a Jet9 owner who is considering moving to carbon and have boiled it down to either the Tall Boy or the Fly. I see pros and cons in each but both are just too much alike at the same time.
What I really don’t understand about the fly is why have the offset fox fork + steeper angle in the first place? To clarify, why not just design the frame head tub where you need it and then any fork would work? This isn’t a question about fox, rather the design break in angle decision employed on the Fly. This is a new development. Any thoughts?
Second – the suspension between the two seems very much the same minus that the Fly has a link in the rear axle. Any additional thoughts on that?
I am thinking that in terms of which is racer they are about the same (or could be) but which is more for epic (and I mean big epic, multi-day, which I do)? One might think the tall boy but I am not certain yet.