Edge Composites Rims/American Classic Hubs: A Western Review!
April 10th, 2009 by Guitar TedEditors Note: After I did some initial testing on the Edge Composites rim/American Classic hubbed wheels, winter set in. What better time to send them off to Grannygear in sunny SoCal! Here’s his Western story about the wheels with a little insight from a racing friend of his added for good measure. Enjoy the tale!
It is time for the Edge/American Classic wheelset to head back to the great Midwest into the hands of Guitar Ted for more testing. So, as they are tucked safely away in the arms of FedEx, I will pass on my thoughts of the time spent on the wheelset as well as some comments from another rider who raced and rode them for a bit.
So, where to start? Well, if I saw these talked about in the pages of some shiny magazine or on some website, I would want to know a few things:
-Any surprises? Is there anything odd about the rims?
-Will they break?
-Can you really tell the difference when riding them?
-Are they worth the money?
Let us take them one at a time. There were a couple of things I struggled with when setting these up and getting them ready to roll. The bead seat is a bit lax in my opinion, at least compared to the excellent fit of the Stan’s Flows I have on one wheelset. They were a bit better than the very loose DT Swiss rims I also use. I had quite a bit of fiddling in store to get the tire bead evenly seated on the rim. The first time I aired them up and spun them in my hands, they dipped and dived like a crazy merry go round. I had to let some air out and massage the tires into place to get them even. No biggie, but why at this point can we not have tight fitting rim/tire interfaces? The biggest pain through all of this was the presta valve stem extenders. The deep rim shape requires a long stem so the rims are supplied with a tube that screws onto the presta valve and allows you to add air through this extension. Once I had one presta valve stick open and leak air when the tube was installed. I found this set-up to be a pain that I had never needed to deal with before, but perhaps this is SOP for use with a deep V rim. You better not lose those or you are out of luck getting air in those babies. Strike one against quick and easy flat repairs, since, when racing, I would want the process to be as painless as possible. When installing a tire/tube combo, I typically use the presta valve locking nut to hold the stem in place during the air up process. No go here as the nut will not reach the threads on the stem through the deep rim. I had to press with my free hand on the back of the stem through the carcass of the deflated tire and pump with the other hand till it caught enough air to get going. Maybe I am mechanically dyslexic, but it was a bit clunky. I suppose you could use an extended stem tube in 26” but I had normal tubes only.
I never broke them, bent them, or even scratched them. They remain as true as the day I got them. I did run them fairly hard, but be aware that I am not wheel killer. I rarely ever bend a wheel and the terrain around my neck of the woods is not that abusive on stuff. I ran them on the full suspension and when faced with a difficult section, I tended to run right into the heart of it at speed with no ill effects. I am not sure if these rims can go out of true as long as the spokes are evenly tensioned. A typical metal rim will deflect and return to normal unless it is pushed past its limits and then it will remain out of shape. Can that happen with carbon? I doubt it. I imagine they will not ‘bend’ in the classic sense. At one recent endurance event, I saw a guy pounding his aluminum wheel back into shape after a taco-inducing crash. He rode out on an only slightly wobbly rim. If carbon goes past its limit, it goes boom. A shattered rim would not be something you would ride out of the backcountry.
Are they all that zippy, really? Well, I am directly comparing them to my Hope ProII/Stans Flow wheelset which was running the same tires tubeless as I had mounted on the Edge rims. The weight all mounted and ready to go worked out to be around 100 grams difference between the Edge combination and the Stan’s set-up, the Edge being the lighter of the two. Is 100 grams really significant? Perhaps. I will say that they felt quite snappy and held momentum well when burning coal up a fireroad climb. The most obvious impression was the way they responded to steering input and held a line through S turns and directional changes. Was it just my imagination? Maybe. I cannot say that the Flows would be a wimpy wheel build, so perhaps I am imagining things. Still, I did get that impression each time I rode them, so there it is. If I had been coming from a heavier or flexier wheelset, I bet the difference would have been dramatic.
Are they worth the money? Well, I have to think that the typical buyer is a racer type looking for a lot of performance from a light package. If you compare the weight of the Edge rims, I cannot imagine getting that kind of stiffness and strength from a comparably light metal rim. From that standpoint alone, they are the real deal. Guitar Ted weighed these rims at 380 and 390 grams. The Flow rims weigh 525 grams per the Stan’s No-Tubes site. So if we want to compare stiffness vs. weight, let us say that the Flow is equal to the Edge in stiffness, but not weight. To get to the weight of an Edge rim in the Stan’s line-up you would need to run a ZTR 355 at 410 grams. No way is a 355 as tough as this carbon rim. So, in that regard, it is pretty impressive. What about tubeless compatible? Well, maybe Guitar Ted will go to uncharted territory there. I chose not to, and in fact, there were two events that I should have run the Edge wheels and chose not to due to the lack of tubeless-ness. Camp Lynda, 200 miles over three days of Utah trails and roads, and Vision Quest with its 11,000’ of climbing called for a light, tough wheelset. But St George is full of thorns and in the first hour of Vision Quest, I counted 12 flat tires among the riders. Tubeless rules, so I left the zippy Edge wheels at home.
Are they worth the money? Not for me since I cannot see giving up tubeless in any race wheel. Combined with the silly extenders and the loose bead seat I just would not put up with all that to have a lighter wheel. But, if you are a rim bender and need to get a light weight set of hoops to be competitive, they are a pretty good choice. I will be interested to see what the future of carbon rims hold for 29ers. If a tubeless solution was offered, I would be very happy to run a composite rim.
The American Classic hubs did what they were supposed to do all through the testing process. They remained smooth rolling and the steel inserts on the freehub body, while not completely preventing the cassette from digging into the alloy body, did seem to reduce it quite a bit. I have to think this would be a boon to those running a single SS cog on this hub.
I also passed the wheels to a very seasoned rider who raced on them and rode them for a bit. His thoughts are here, as well as the pics in the article.
“Carbon rims are ultra cool, light, and expensive. Not everyone will own a Ferrari in their lifetime but not one testosterone filled male would refuse to take one out for a drive. When Grannygear asked me to take the Edge carbon rims for a ride I couldn’t refuse either. Lack of experience behind the wheel of a fancy sports car would limit my ability to push it to the limit on the track, but the mountain bike is a different story. Heck, hit some rocks and ruts, accelerate out of a tight corner, brake hard, take chances, race it and you have yourself a test ride. I was lucky enough to do my first race in years and rolled the Edge wheels to the start line on my Orbea Alma 29. There is no better way to test a product than racing. No one pushes the limits of products more then racers do on race day whether it be a beginner or a pro.
The wheels performed flawlessly. The acceleration out of corners and up quick climbs was noticeable over heavier wheels. They didn’t flex like my other wheels that occasionally let the tire rub the stays, which is noticeable with the Orbea’s limited tire clearance. No chain stay rubbing with these always perfectly true wheels. Can you bend these? No, you can’t bend carbon. I wish I could use these for an extended time to test the long-term reliability. I did do a long ride the day after the race on the Kern Canyon trail and the rims performed perfectly.”
KT
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Nice review!
Why not run sealent in the tubes? Because of the chance the valves will clog?
I bet a sealent filled tube could prevent punctures just as well as as a no-tube.
There are valve extenders that work with replacable core valves. You’ll need such a tube. The extender screws in, and you effective have a longer valve. much heavier, but also much better to deal with, I found out with my Zipps rims and tubulars.
I still want these rims for my Superfly build, but oh man, the extra money for that bit of stiffness and nothing more than a few grams…
Cost-to-benefit ratio of these rims is not high enough. I like aluminum rims, I know I can pound out a dent, correct a kink, etc. when out in the woods (and have in the past). If I was an elite XC geek maybe it would be a bit different, but still, there’s just not much there to convince me. The tubeless issue is huge, like the cost.
To get closer to the apparent performance specs of these rims, we’re have to apply common knowledge.
- Magnesium or other top-end aluminium extrusions
- 36 spokes, thin but stiff ones. I have reason to know it can be done.
- Wider hub flange spacing, perhaps even hub width.
- Frames to be compatible with the latter.
Cost penalty over contemporary ZTR 355 could be kept in check, or even negative, while taking stiffness and durability another step further, without sacrificing weight. 390g as confirmed for these Edge’s, is not unheard of.
I own 389g first generation ZTR’s, with brake tracks and all. Sure, flexy as heck, But with a smarter disc-specific extrusion shape (like modern ZTR’s), and more high-end manufacturing process (let’s pretend it’s a car part rather than a bike part), we can get something muh better made.
Cloxxki – Sure, I easily could have run Slime tubes, but that would have cost me money for something I have little use for otherwise and I bet they are heavier?? It just seemed like it was not worth the trouble for one race.
grannygear
I have a set of these 29er wheels (only with DT 240s) and have to say this…..wow. These rims are much more stiff than any alloy rim you can buy and even with 28h 2x with Aerolites I have seen none…..and I weigh in around 230-240lbs depending on the time of year with enough power in my legs to flex anything.
The thing to focus on here is not just the weight, but the strength/stiffness. Stan’s rims notoriously are soft and while that’s ok for the sub 160lb-140lb crowd in the real world that doesn’t work for the rest of us (In Stan’s defense, his aim is at making stuff for Racers first and he does a damn good job at it). I like knowing I can smack my rim into anything and it isn’t going to break or bend or warp my rim. I like having snappy quick wheels that I can run real tires (Panaracer Rampages) still.
Price? Yeah. Not cheap. But figure if you ride hard and aren’t small you’ll probably beat through a set of $90 a pop rims lightweight rims($180 total) every season or two. Add in new spokes, rebuild, plus time without wheels/needing a back up set for a trip….they fair well over the next few years. Throw in buying say a Niner EMD frame for $500 vs some $1100-$1500 frame and throw the extra into your wheels you get closer to justifying it. Realize the extra money Avid Ultimates are over Juicy 7s, XO vs X9, etc… and it’s just being smart about where you put the extra money on your bike. Wheels first people. Wheels first. Build your price point/budget after that.
If someone is prepared to deal with sealent-tubeless, preparing a few latex tubes with 30-40g of sealent each should not be too much effort. I have been sorry when I didn’t get away with plain tubes, and had thought about “sealing” them prior to even smalltime races.
Yeah, many of “our” purchases are out of line, at least bring much less performance for the additional cost.
My current Fisher Superfly build though has been relatively cost-consious, apart from a used XO set. The Edge wheels would double the budget though. And despite me totally trusting this site’s reviews, and that it would net the best bike ever for me, at least in terms of pedaling-steering stiffness, I have a hard time justifying.
If only Stan would not be so stubbern and just offered 36h Arches and 455’s, the performance difference from the Edges would not be so huge.
We do realize that these rims cost more than some prize winning carbon road FRAMES, right? <400g of carbon vs 1000g of it. Symmetrical shape vs a complicated and larger frame with machined alu parts.
But I want them so bad!
I lost money on the stock exchange recently (must master that game some day), else I would have said “what the heck”.
Interestingly enough, the Effeto Mariposa Caffelatex solution is said to be thin enough to inject through a standard Presta valve stem. I’ll be getting an injector to use and I will try it out on the Edge rimmed wheels.
Also, the Bontrager 48mm Presta valave stem 26 inch tubes work a trick with the Edge rims. No extenders necessary.
Agreed on the 36 hole rims, in general I think the 29er wheel is the perfect application. Spoke tension is the bottom-line factor for strength in the wheel, and the increase in support- with more spokes in the load-affected zone of the rim- is worth the weight. Mo’, betta.
If rim stiffness is that much greater with the Edge rims, that could be a factor to support the extreme (IMO) cost. But I’d guess that a 36H alloy rim built with high tension would be significantly stiffer than 32H. Sure seems that way with road wheels I’ve built.
Costly and difficult affair, but I’d love to try a 40-spoke wheel with thin spokes at (relatively) high tension. We just need a rim that can handle it. Sell one to us either undrilled for us to add eyelets, or stick in 40 of them. 8 extra spokes weigh 35 grams, but if they’re all Aerolites, you’re still in for a lightweight total and crazy lateral stiffness at most any tension.
Sez me, the non-wheelbuilder.
Daydream time:my current perfect 29er wheel would have a 27mm DT or Mavic made rim, with a tighter bead seat like the WTB rims use, or with Stan’s bead socket design. 36 or 40 holes with stainless eyelets and a 530 -550g weight. 14-15-14 Sapim or DT spokes 3 cross, locking brass nipples. That would be my ideal- the wheel would weigh a bit more than some but should be damn strong, responsive, and durable for any trail rider, at a reasonable cost. The fact is, a lot of bigger guys like 29ers, and they’re on 24-32 spoke wheels. That makes no sense to me. But then, I am a bit of a retro grouch, and I have a well-thumbed copy of Jobst Brandt’s “The Bicycle Wheel” in the loo.
I think that carbon tubulars make a lot more sense here, but I could probably get years out of this clincher pair as I’m a 35-40 psi, 145 lb. rider.
A note on valve extenders: The most common issue that people run into in dealing with valve extenders is the assumption that they should be removable and swappable from wheel to wheel. A valve extender should be “permanently” installed onto the valve, and additionally onto any spare tires/tubes. Prior to valve extender installation, the check-valve nut should be locked (forced) into the open postion as this will avoid most common problem #2; “the valve closes when I spin the valve extender on.” Just before installing the extender, apply a useful amount of teflon tape to the valve threads, being careful not to block the air path, and install the extender with two opposing wrenches. The bottom of the extender should just begin to mushroom outward as it reaches the end of the valve threads. This setup won’t leak, the check-valve won’t magically close, and you’ll be ready to go with your spare tube as well. After you get home from your ride you can analyze the condition of any used extenders for re-use.
To some, this will seem like kind of a big deal, but now you know how I feel about tubeless and sealant! Thanks for reviewing the fancy wheels GG!
When I mounted the tires I used presta to Schrader adaptors to inflate the tires with no problem. The valve stem shows just enough threads to get the adaptor on there, use any pump head that will go Schrader & you’re in business. Put an extra adaptor in your seat bag & store one on the valve stem & no worries about pricey extensions. Still waiting to see if anyone has tried tubeless? These wheels gone tubeless would justify selling your second car to make the purchase!!
I run my Edge AM wheels tubeless all of the time so I am not sure what the issue is. It’s not that straight forward to get them to seal but once they’re sealed they work great. Just put in the wider of the stan’s rim tape and use a valve stem cut from an old road tube that is long enough to extend out of the deep rims. I use Specialized Captain tires and put them on with tubes first. After sitting overnight with high pressure to get any of the kinks out of the tires after being folded in the packaging, I remove the tube put in the valve stem some stan’s sealant and inflate. Sometimes I will have a problem getting them to seal so I will lay it down flat and pour some sealant on the outside of the tire and let it run down between the tire and the wheel around the entire bead. Let it sit for 10 minutes and then flip it over and do the same on the opposite side. I have never had it fail to inflate after that. I’ve raced VisionQuest and numerous other races without a flat or a burp.
@kevin
You are not sure what the issue is? How about from the third sentence in your paragraph till the end. I don’t accept all that monkey motion to go tubeless, not after seeing how well it can work with components engineered to work together, ie Stan’s Flows and the Captain tires. Effortless and repeatable.
Besides that, Edge themselves does not think it is a good idea. Glad it worked for you, though. I will wait for the improved version of the carbon rims before I spend that kind of money to dance.
grannygear