Hutchinson Toro 29″er Tubeless Ready Tire: First Impressions
March 8th, 2009 by Guitar TedThe Hutchinson Toro Tubeless Ready Concept 29 inch tire is now out and we have ours mounted tubeless. With a few rides under my belt, here are my first impressions of the new tread. I must first confess something though. I had originally intended to mount this tire on a 28mm wide rim, but I ended up going to a 24mm wide rim instead in a last minute administartive decision to accomodate another test I am undertaking. So, I have a Toro mounted to a Bontrager Race X Lite TLR wheel using the TLR rim strip and some “secret” tubeless solution that is latex based. The Toro is mounted as a front tire with a Python in the rear as per Hutchinson’s recommendo.
I let the Toro set up overnight with 40 psi in the casing to get it settled in. I came back and measured the tire at a disappointing 50.1mm casing width. This tire is listed as a 2.1 inch width, but you will be needing a really wide rim to stretch it out that wide and then the resulting loss in casing height would be a negative. Besides, on my 24mm wide rim, the Toro already has a “flatter crowned” profile which a wider rim would only tend to make nearly flat, which would really be detrimental to its cornering performance. By the way, the Python I had mounted tubeless on the Bontrager TLR rim in the rear of my bike was nearly a full millimeter wider! Perhaps given some time, this tire might stretch a bit more, but after two weeks it shows no signs of doing so. I must say that I was surprised that Hutchinson is saying this is a 2.1 incher. More 1.95-ish by my measuring stick.
The Hutchinson site lists the Toro as an “excellent” mud shedder. So off to the mud with it I went. First, let me qualify my findings here by saying a bit about the mud we have here in my locale. It is the sort of mud that has its closest relation in sticky clay. The dirt is the rare “black earth” variety with a healthy dose of sand. I always have to temper my expectations of “mud shedding” against this extreme type of mud, so read on with this in mind.
The Toro didn’t fare too well in my mud tests.
With the Toro’s knobs being the same from base to top without much taper, and the knobs close enough together to let the mud get a grip on the casing, I found that the Toro packed up pretty severely in a few revolutions into the mud. Now this isn’t the end of the test, the tire is then allowed to fling off the mud, if it can, by riding on dry terrain immediately after the mud packs on. Well, the Toro only collected more debris in the form of dry leaves and grass which began to accumulate to a point that started to make the tire/mud rub on the fork blades. Well, so much for the mud shedding abilities!
I did find that the Toro was a decent roller, had good grip at moderate lean angles, and performed in a good manner in dry conditions. Folks that like to throw the bike over in corners will not like the Toro. It has too flat a profile for that style of riding. Finesse riders that use moderate lean angles in corners may find the Toro to their liking though. I thought that the casing felt somewhat stiffer than the Pythons does. I will have to try a lower pressure to search this out though.
I will also be looking to set the Toro in a more rocky, extreme off camber situation soon to test the lateral grip and casing toughness that Hutchinson claims for the Toro. In as far as the width and mud shedding abilities are concerned though, the Toro falls short. I also question the tire as a front, since the width is narrow, I may take it off the front and pair it up with a wider tire for the front end like a Maxxis Ardent. This will probably play to the Toro’s flattish profile and make it more an advantage than it does by running the Toro up front.
Stay tuned for an update on the Toro in a month or so.
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Disappointing news on the meager width of the Toro. Been running the Ardent Front / Python Rear combo on my Flows since last September – good performance together for South Florida trails.
I concur on the disappointment on the news of the performance of the Toros… I remain pretty darn stoked on the performance of my Ardent front/CrossMark rear combo in almost every type of terrain I ride. They’re versatile performers and reliable running getto-tubeless in my experience, to boot.
The Badger is looking TIGHT, BTW.
Gee… a Hutchinson tire didn’t perform well? Who’d a thunk it.
Phew, I ordered the Ardent’s this morning…
The 26in Toro’s are pretty good in mud but then I’ve heard people say the 26in Ardent’s are rubbish so that probably has no relevance to the 29in versions performance.
The Toro’s definitely feel better at lower pressures, I run mine just under 30psi and they have a nice floaty feel
Hey GT
Is the tubeless solution you’re using a hybrid like stan’s & super juice combo, or are you going full homebrew with the hobby/craft shop latex w/ a little anti-freeze and or slime mixed in, or something else? Getting ready to mount the vulpines to the VXC’s.
I appreciate the 24 vs 28mm evaluation. I’ve found having both gives you some more options with tires.
Dirt – I wouldn’t be too critical of Hutchinson – they have a good pedigree both here and abroad.
Hi Guitar Ted,
This isn’t really related to the tire (though I am interested in 29er tire reviews), but I see that you have Avid BB7 disc brakes on your bike. I have a pair of BB7 calipers and rotorsin good condition that I picked up when I was having problems with my Avid Juicy 5’s that were on my other bike (26″–I’m selling it)–the rear caliper would rub and neither I nor the bike shop could fix it.
Anyways, I was wondering which brakes you thought would be better (more reliable/better performing): the new Shimano M485 hydraulic disc brakes that came stock on the 2008 X-Caliber (I believe they’re an OEM model similar to Deore hydraulic brakes) or the Avid BB7’s. I would probably be setting up the Avid BB7’s with a high quality (low compression) brake cable and probably Avid Speed Dial 7 levers. Both brakes would be using 160 mm rotors front and rear, because I only weigh about 150, so braking power is not a big concern, though I would like good modulation and not a lot of friction (why I’d be using higher quality cable and housing if I went the BB7 route).
I guess I’m kind of leaning towards the BB7’s at this point because of my experience with the Avid Juicy 5’s, but I haven’t been able to actually ride with the Shimano’s because the trails aren’t open here in La Crosse, yet.
IF YOU WOULD recommend the Avid BB7’s, what would be a good cable to use? Jagwire Ripcord? Alligator Super Fortress cable kit (at pricepoint)? Any others?
THANK YOU for any advice you can give,
Mike
If anyone else has used either of these brakes or similar Shimano hydraulics, please let me know of your opinion, too.
MG: Thanks for the compliments on the Badger.
prphoto: I am using a latex/windshield washer solvent mixture.
Mike: I’m a big fan of BB-7’s but the set up is super critical on them. I would use at least a Jagwire kit, Flak Jacket, or other non-compressible housing. Nokon housing “can” work, but it is more fidgety than BB-7’s and waaaay expensive!
If you stay away from mud, gravel in huge helpings, and wet weather riding, the BB-7’s will be easy to get along with.
I have heard excellent things about XT disc brakes though, so a Shimano set up using XT brakes would definitely be on my radar to try. Also, I don’t think I’ve used a Magura brake that didn’t “wow” me just a little bit. My experiences on Avid and Hayes have been spotty. Some good. Some horrible.
Finally, I have really been liking the Quad Dime XC brakes I picked up recently. They are quite reasonably priced and work very well.
Well, my brakes are actually the Shimano M485’s, which I believe are a little below regular Deore level hydraulic brakes, so they probably wouldn’t perform as well as Deore XT brakes (and would probably be quite a bit heavier). I’m not sure that I could afford Deore XT hydraulic brakes.
You haven’t had any experience with or heard anything about the Shimano’s M485’s or Deore level hydraulics are?
Where did you get your Quad Dime XC brakes?
Thanks,
Mike
Mike: I have not seen anything hydro in a lower end Shimano brake. Only mech discs. The Avid Juicy 3 stuff is on sale pretty cheap at a lot of on-line retailers sites, and I have used those with good results.
Quad brakes are available through LBS retailers that deal with J&B Importers.
Did you get a chance to weigh the Toro?
Gshock: 690 grams
I got a set of Toro’s cheap on ebay and have ridden them for a couple of weeks. I live in Carson City, NV, so I ride dry rocky/sandy conditions. The tire is definitely not 2.1. It looks more like a 1.95 especially compared to my Nevegals. I have these mounted on DT 470 rims, set up tubeless. So far, I am happy with the grip and control even for the narrow profile. They hold air beautifully. The biggest difference compared to my Nevegals is rolling resistence. The Toros roll so much better.