Wheel Weight and 29″ers: Are We Going The Wrong Way?
May 9th, 2008 by Guitar TedOne of the bigger complaints about 29″er wheels is that they weigh more and are harder to accelerate than a 26″er wheel. This is due to the obvious fact that there is more material to deal with than a 26″er wheel has- more tire, more rim, longer spokes.
So, in an effort to reduce the difference between 26″ers lighter weight and a 29″ers weight in wheels, many manufacturers have built wheel sets that address this in varying ways with varying amounts of success. Mostly we are talking high performance, racing type stuff here. Wheels like Bontragers Race X Lite and Mavic’s Cr29ssmax wheels, which are quite reasonable weight-wise and retain a modicum of stiffness that makes them great wheel choices for 29″ers. Even lighter sets can be had like American Classics, which get down below 1600 grams a wheelset, which is pretty light for a mountain bike wheel set of any wheel diameter.
So it was with a puzzled look on my face that I examined the bike pictured here at Sea Otter fitted with Shimano’s newest and only 29″er wheelset. It has many features that are related to it’s 26″er XT sister, tubeless compatible, free hub improvements, and axle tweaks. The one thing it shares with it’s smaller diameter sister is the spoke count, which at 24 spokes is not enough for a 29″er wheel. Then I heard the weight- 1850 grams! Okay…….color me not impressed.
Several pre-builts for 29″ers are the same or lighter with more spokes. This raises a red flag in my mind. If Shimano uses less spokes and yet their 29″er wheel weighs more than some wheels using more spokes, then where is the weight coming from? My guess is that it is most likely in the rim, which is the worst place it could be in, (for this category of wheel) and defeats the purpose of making a high performance 29″er wheel in the first place.
And speaking of the rim, it is a narrower rim- 24mm- and that is fine, but consider this: A Rhythm wheelset, which has 28 spokes and a 28mm wide rim weighs only a 100 grams more and is built to be a trail/general use wheelset! Mavic’s Cr29ssmax wheels weighed in at an even 1800 grams with skewers and tubeless valve stems installed. The Cr29ssmax wheels are also 24 spokes, by the way, which again, I’m not a big fan of, but the Zircal spokes are a different animal than what Shimano uses. The point is, the weight on the Shimano wheels is going to top out over 1900 grams when you add in skewer weight and tubeless valve stems. That, as Bicycle Retailer and Industry News states in their Sea Otter Special coverage, “…..is not super light.”
I don’t want this to seem like a Shimano bashing party, because it isn’t. The trend seems to be going this way with pre-builts. FSA introduced it’s own 29″er wheelset at Sea Otter, without much fanfare I might add, and it weighs in at 1920 grams. Again, using only a 24mm wide rim, FSA claims that it is erring on the side of durability. Well, there are choices out there with wider rims, (better for durability) that weigh less. What these companies are offering that is better, (other than their names, which is arguable) is beyond me.
Sure, 29″er wheels are going to weigh more than a comparable 26″er wheel, but with smart design and better use of materials, it doesn’t have to be such a big gulf, and certainly we don’t need heavier wheelsets that purport to be high performance/race category wheels. The proof is out there and companies jumping into the market would do well to examine the competition before setting out with a wheelset that doesn’t measure up.
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How right you are GT.
And I’m sure the Shimano weight is all in the rim - just like some of their low spoke count road wheels - comfy but WRONG !
I’m still of the belief that nothing beats a well specified and well handbuilt wheel - even if it misses out on all the new fangled logos, colours and marketing hype of the OEM wheelbuilders.
For those interested in light, stiff and strong - build a DTSwiss 240, Sapin CXray and Stans 355 rimed wheelset and it may cost a few dollars more but will last forever and ride like a dream - will also weigh less than any prebuilt available….
Although I agree with your point of view on the weight of this wheels, I think you guys are missing the point. As a firm believer in the 29er since it’s creation, I can remember my old boss was putting 700c rims on his Trek Y bike with Hayes disc brakes and narrow 1.5″ Continental touring tires back in 1996.
Anyway, my point to that is- for years we waited for tires, rims and forks to come to market. We believers of the big wheel movement basically begged for manufactures to give us options. Now, finally we do. Just today I was thumbing through the BTI and QBP catalogs and was really shocked at all the 29er stuff. So, to hear your guys complain about a prebuilt wheelset weighing 1900 grams, kinda makes me chuckle.
What level of quality are the parts in this Shimano wheel? From the looks of them, I suspect LX level, which is not known for light weight. I did not find them on their website. If a conservative company like Shimano is willing to step up and bring a 29er wheelset to market, that really says something about the benefits of big wheels. Here’s the bigger catch; if it sells, it’ll raise a few eyebrows and hopefully give them a reason to develope a lighter, higher quality wheelset.
Missing the Point: you really are missing the point. It’s an XT level wheel! XT is marketed as the ‘trail worthy yet raceable and well priced’ component groupset. So the point is, how can you release a ‘high performance’ wheelset that’s not as good as it could be. I believe what GT is really trying to say is that if you’re going to make a wheel- do it right!
Although you may have been into 29ers before many of us, but in 12 years wheel weights, durability and stiffness of 26″ and 29″ wheelsets have improved for a given price point. How can a company as small as Stan’s produce rims that are durable, stiff and light when a company as big as Shimano produce a wheel that’s ‘not great but not bad’.
Missing The Point: I will address your second paragraph here, as it seems to be the main impetus for your posting the comment.
Choices are good, yes. Choices in 29″er gear was lacking even just a couple of years ago. Had Shimano hit the market up with this particular XT level wheelset back then, the tune I’m singing would have been somewhat different.
And again, it’s not just Shimano either…..
The thing is, their isn’t really any excuse to introduce a high end wheelset that is as “underwhelming” as these recent offerings when the competition has wheelsets in the same genre weighing substantially less. Especially disappointing is the Shimano offering, considering their vast resources. My feeling is that they missed the mark here.
Professed also makes a strong point: If you are going to offer a pre-built wheelset, it had better offer features that handbuilt wheels do or even some benefits that handbuilts cannot offer. Shimano has a tubeless rim, but beyond this, a handbuilt wheel for 29″ers has much more benefit to the performance minded cyclist. (And to be honest, tubeless rims are available to build with also.)
I won’t even get into the low spoke count/lateral rigidity thing other to say that a 24 spoked wheel for off roading in 622 ISO doesn’t sound like it has a high chance of passing muster.
It seems that everyone has a valid argument here, although Missing the Point isn’t focused on the actual issue as I see it. We have several high performance options in the 29er wheel market today that should serve as a basis from which new designs from better capitalized and higher tech companies can emerge. Shimano, FSA and Fulcrum all have missed a big opportunity to appeal to the performance minded 29 inch rider. Their new products are frankly heavy, expensive and that makes them unappealing to me. I venture to say, based on what I see at races, that today there is as much growth in the 29er market from performace minded riders as purely recreational riders. (That, or Superfly’s and AIR 9’s are breeding like rabbits and flocking to races.) People catch on pretty quickly to what offers legit performance and that’s what sells. Hopefully this will signal a wake-up call to the big-boy manufacturers to improve upon what currently exists and offer us some real innovation. (Funny, but we could probably have this same discussion regarding 29er tires, too.)
I have to feel that, in a rush to grab their share of the growing market, Shimano might have spent more time testing and researching than marketing. I recently discovered the joys and benefits of the larger wheels, and in a compromise with my better half, purchased a set of the new Rhythms instead of the hand-built set that cherished (on the chance that I might not like it). I feel that the homework done by Keith and the boys has paid off, setting the bar higher for Shimano. From the sound of it, they haven’t quite found the solution. While this is their first attempt at 29″ wheels, it’s not their first attempt at wheels. For the price, a nice hand-built set of wheels can be had, custom to your riding conditions and style. This is a no-brainer.
Remember that each of these items (Shimano, FSA, Fulcrum) is each company’s respective first foray into the 29er market. Each company is a rather large company (mild understatement in Shimano’s case) so they will begin their introduction rather conservatively. It just leaves the door open for subsequent, lighter weight, revisions.
I’d have to ride the 24 spoked Shimano wheel to judge if it is sufficiently stout, but based on riding their 26″ 24 spoked wheel, and Shimano’s penchant for over engineering, I ‘d think they would be okay. Everyone couldn’t imagine a 28 spoked mountain bike wheel would be durable/stiff back when 32 and 36 were the norm, but it’s been show that 28 is totally sufficient and now Mavic even has 18 spoked front wheels (albeit in 26″ size).
And besides, how stiff does a wheel need to be when folks are running air pressure down in the mid-20’s anyway
Ahh, I missed the XT designation for these wheels. So, yes I do agree that this is a heavy wheelset for something with a low spoke count. The thing we aren’t considering is who are these wheels really geared towards? Lets face it, Shimano lost it’s strangle hold on bike manufactures and product managers, especially as Sram brought more and better quality product to market. Could these wheels be more geared towards those product managers rather than the aftermarket crowd?
I think we’ve all proven that this segment of mountian biking prefers a handbuilt, custom wheelset. We like that personal touch, and want the performance too. As I stated earlier, these prebuilt wheels might not be for us, but it’s a sign that the industry is accepting the benefits. Yeah, one might argue that Shimano is just getting on the band wagon, but it really is better for us that they support big wheels then ignore them. Shimano has a strong working realtionship with several tire manufactures, hmm…
As far as Shiny Flu’s question regarding rims; keep in mind that Stans is just that- a small company. They can afford to push the envelope a bit further than a corporate giant like Shimano with many, many financial interests. But, thats a good thing! It’s companies like Stans that made rims, tires, forks before the big guys jumped on the “band wagon.” So if that means I get to ride big wheels well into the future because of the wide selection of parts available, then I welcome Shimano, FSA, Mavic, Fulcrum to keep on making their parts too.
“Could these wheels be more geared towards those product managers rather than the aftermarket crowd?” - Missing the Point
As a former product manager, no. With the exception of Trek and Specialized who have their own wheel divisions, the price of a wheelset like the XT is probably too prohibitive to spec on anything but the most expensive bike. And then, if it is the most expensive bike, a dutiful product manager would probably choose something lighter.
There is much more acceptance of complete wheels on the road side compared to the mountain bike side. On mountain bikes, by the time you add in the cost of a suspension fork, rear shock, the price of the bike can climb quite high.
I think the thing that “we” miss is that in the grand scheme of bike sales and marketing, we (the informed via websites such as this) are the vast minority. The majority of bike buyers is unaware of sites such as this and are reliant on bikes shops to inform them when they chose to buy a bike. If this customer is in a bike shop shopping for a bike, the sales dude can easily “sell” the customer on a 29er bike with XT wheels as more customers recognize the Shimano brand.
diggers@twentynineinches.com not working?
Trying to contact you.
I agree the fact these wheels are coming in at over 1800 grams is stupid. Especially considering these aren’t going to be $200 a a set wheels.
So what’s the deal with the weight? Well despite some thoughts of “over engineering” and such the fact of the matter is these big boys have realized they have waited too long to jump on the 29er bandwagon and many other companies (Salsa, Stans, WTB, etc…) are kicking their ass. They want to get something out there NOW and not wait for Interbike 2009.
Will these wheels get lighter in years to come? Yup. But right now they’re obviously more concerned about getting a product out there now vs putting out a competitor. Mavic did it right, the CrossMax29er wheelset ain’t bad….and they are easily as big or bigger in the wheel world than the above mentioned.
Good stuff GT.
I think whels are not going to be light, strong or affordable while we’re trying to make them work with AND the 29″ tire format AND the 19th century idea of the ballpark width for a rear hub.
Skip the mid-sized, and head for a 160mm hub width, at least. Modern tube manipulation will keep that away from the heels. It’s only going to serve chainline with the stuff Shimano’s been making lately.
With a 25mm wider rear hub flange spacing, 24 spoke wheels may return to the A menu. The stiffness will be there, and with plain normal stainless steel, though perhaps stamped flat spokes. The extra weight in the hub (30 grams top?) might well save more than that in spokes (5g a pop).
Until Fisher does it first to the large market, and one day we can pick frames from the catalogues with wide rear hub spacing, this is my simple idea of a goog wheelset :
- XTR hubs. Still good, but lately really light, and at that price competitive with the DT stuff.
- Salsa’s Semi rims, 30mm, should be here soon? 500g each
- 36 hole rims that is, at least for the rear
- alu nips, DT COmp or similar spokes.
Money is most in the hubs, which are, well, XTR. Spokes are cheap. Rims are great in-between, without the in-between width. Or should I say girth?
I think I just listed a <1800g wheelset. Do my math please?
Next best would be to convince Stan to make 36h Arches. Do so by buying a gazillion 3h Flows from them. Not much heavier rims though, a good chique alternative to the mentioned Salsa Semi’s I suppose.
But then, weight, schmeight.
If you’re riding a sandy trail, or a place with even the slightest sucky or slippery bit…perhaps a braking point here or there, and an actual corner to negotionat…say, a trail worth leaving the roadbike home for…the plusses 29″ have to offer will tip the balance, sub-2kg whelset or not.
J
PS. I won a national Singlespeed championship once, on a bike with 3kg frame and 2500g wheelset, excluding single cog. Nothing like a stiff frame that makes sense and a wheelset that keeps your rims in the middle, when you’re hammering it out against fitter competitors, on smarter bikes.
Also, you can refer to the rims size as 26″ or 29″ or 29er rim, but there is no need to call them 29″ er or 26″ er. Just lame in my opinion.
While you are at it, stop complaining for the sake of complaining. Just enjoy the fact that new products keep coming out for 29″ platform.
oliver: While I could refer to the wheel sizes/rim diameters as you suggest, I am not going to. I have a very good, rational reason for using “29″er” and if you’ve been around long enough, you know why that is.
Also, I am not “complaining for the sake of complaining”, as you state. I am pointing out something that doesn’t make sense on a lot of levels. Again, to just say “more choices are good” is short sighted and shallow. There should be a good reason for the “choice”, or it is a waste of time. While some of these newer pre-builts have some nice features, (tubeless ready, nice look) they fall short in terms of performance, as I state in the post. In high performance wheel sets, weight matters, and especially where that weight is. With 29″er wheels, it is critically important.
harder to get rolling, Because the are heavier- I think not!, its harder to get rolling because of the circumferance, Solution- a 22t granny gear (IM putting one on my latest build)
As far as weights- if you don’t like the weight of a 29er, Don’t ride one!
Wheel and tires- I thing we are doing wonderful with the heaviest tire being the 1150g Stout, when there are numerous 26″ am/fr/dh tires that are 1200+g. and the “bottom shelf” wheelsets weighing 2600g,
About a month ago I was at my LBS, there was Karpiel in for repair and its front tire/wheel, was 2600g.
In closing isn’t the extra momentum/speed and such of a 29er part of why we ride them? Where do you think that momentum comes from?
Desert9r: Well, that is an excellent point, but it also reflects a different type of riding/rider than I am addressing in my post. Think more high performance XC, less trail/AM/FR and you might see where I’m coming from. I get what you are saying though, and yes: I have also noticed that 26″er AM/FR/DH stuff is pretty heavy in many cases. Of course, that “flywheel effect” can be put to much good use if you have the right trails for it. Otherwise, the less weight on the outside of the rim the better for the rest.
Guitar Ted-
I included AM, due to my understancing of that type of riding/racing.
As I understand it AM is Hardcore XC, with bikes like the Scott Ransom or the Lanzsports 29er, rather than a Rush/Prophet/Spider 29/JET9
As the Wheelbuilder for my shop, I say bring on the heavy production wheelsets! Ill build you up something stupid strong and stupid light. (This means if you dont like those heavy productions around you or on the bikes, give your local wheelbuilder a shot, very rarely you will be let down by a LBS handbuilt wheel, providing they are qualified).
Matty-
Can you build me a geared, “bomb proof”, 1800g wheelset for $300(customer cost)?
1800 grams at 300 bones, huh. And here i thought we were talking high end racer stuff. Light, Strong, Cheap, pick two, that is kinda how the world goes production or handbuilt. But if you are lookin at a stupid high end set of wheels, i just dont see why someone would go production route if they can get a set of wheels specifically built for them, their riding style, their specifications, etc etc etc. instead of something built for the masses.
The biggest mistake I see day in and day out, especially on 29ers, is the 6′3″ 250 lb hammer with absolutely no grace on a bike whatsoever, thinking that they need the lightest damn thing on the planet, get a production set of wheels, and implode them in the first week or so, them want them warrantied.
People should learn to ride without destroying their stuff before they buy stupid light stuff.
WTB Laserdisc lite hubs on bonty mustang rims, with DT comp spokes, brass nips, should come in around 1800 or so and at about 350 bones if you look around.
Cloxxki and Desert9r have a good point about momentum…I crashed at my weekend race due to my lightish front wheel not keeping up its momentum by not ploughing through/over some rocks but by getting caught and allowing my frame/fork to act as a nice and light pendulum around the stopped hub!
I lost 10 -20 seconds or so and got some cuts and bruises due to the crash but if I was running a 2Kg wheelset I and sure that I would have been walking up the final killer pinch every lap and would therefore have lost minutes.
For XC racing - in most conditions - a lighter wheelset will always benefit your riding in terms of energy saved getting it going and keeping it moving regardless of wheelsize and all those sweet benefits we get with our bigger rolling diameters..
As for wider rims, wider flange spacings and even bigger volume tyres - bring em on !!
I disagree on the need for a lighweih wheelset to be fast. Wheels are about the lightest thing keeping you from going faster. Unless you bike is on its bars and seat, being pedaled by a han on a pedal. That’s a situation to worry about wheel weight. All your hand feels is the weight of the wheel. Note : one hand, accelerating the rear wheel to 20mph within a single rotation, in the largest gear. Compare to a ful body sprint on the pedals taking 5-10 pedal rotations, after which you can’t but notice yor breath trying to catch back up with you.
Weiht Schmeigh. Even if your wheels would steer as nicely while being weightLESS, you’d still not gain a fraction of the speed you dream to gain with a lighter rim option.
Weight is only image and mind.
The latest wheels I had build where the cheapest and lightest ones up to the task I have for them. Anything lighter would reduce performance. Heavier, would mainly make them cheaper.
Worrying about weight is something we should keep for times between girlfriends. Check out fo any website with “weightweenies” being mentioned as a word for its occupants to get a taste of some classic in-between-girlfriends action
Guys get obsessed like women over shoes. I was one of them. But then, I wasn’t even between girlfriends yet. When that changed it brought a good cut in my bike expenses without riding any slower 
Cloxxki, Dunno about the “in between girlfreinds” obsession - thinking back they were both good and bad times and often the chase cost a lot of money for not much reward - perhaps that is what you are actually alluding to
Those times are but a distant memory for a happily married man like me!
But perhaps our impressions that we have gotten over the years from riding road bikes and noticing that lightweight aids climbing and sprinting and also climbing on MTB bikes with light wheels; might not always apply?
Probably need to do some testing using the scientific method to refute youhere… But where i ride there is nothing but hills and when riding on steel rims compared to Al alloy and carbon - man, i feel the difference !
For me, the jury is not out. I know the Vroomen-White boys from Cervelo will support you (partly) on the weight weenie argument but with me - lighten everything up (including my gut) brother !
I ride CK SS hubs, DT Alpine spokes, and Stans 355 x32 spokes. 1546 grams for the pair. Ive been riding them two years, no problems , at 210 lbs.
I have to agree with you here GT some factory builders are missing the boat.
Seems like $850-$950 wheels should be around 1650-1550 grams?