650B: Is Their Life After The Buzz?
January 20th, 2008 by Guitar TedRecently I have come across some questions regarding my thoughts on where this 650B mountain bike “thing” is going. I have reserved posting on anything related to this wheel size since Interbike (with the exception of the Fox warning) since I was waiting to see what might develop myself.
While there was a considerable “buzz” surounding the 650B mountain bike before Interbike, the idea has waned considerably since then. There are devotees, certainly, but the promised build up of manufacturers and vendors supporting the idea of 650B for off roading has been, shall we say…..a bit disappointing. To be sure, the products promised may be in the pipeline, but having actual hardware available is going to be critically important in the coming months if the 650B mountain bike idea is going to really take a foot hold.
My feeling is that without a widely distributed name brand front suspension fork at a reasonable price, without a varied assortment of high performance off road tires, and without at least three mid-level manufacturers supporting the platform, 650B is doomed to be what it is. A niche product mostly turned out by custom, hand made bicycle companies in small numbers. Support for the idea is one thing, having the tools and availability to them is quite another.
These are the main ingredients to the success of 650B in terms of making any sort of a dint in terms of mountain bike sales at a retail level or in mountain bike culture. These are things I don’t see happening…….yet. Will they? I think the time is critical for 650B now and the North American Handmade Bicycle Show may give us a clue as to whether or not 650B has any life left in it as a commercially available mountain bike. It was at the 2007 version of NAHMBS that the whole 650B “craze” took root. I think it will be here, in 2008, that we will see if the idea still has legs, or if it is going to be a footnote in the annals of off roading.
Whatever happens, Twenty Nine Inches will be watching. Stay tuned for any further developements.
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It seems to me that it’s premature to come to any conclusions about whether 650B will take off or not. Imagine if the same time table criteria were applied to 29′ers? Look how long it took for this market to gain traction , so to speak…
Frankly, I think 650B may make sense across a broader slice of the MTB spectrum than even 29′ers. I suspect the 29′er market may retract a bit, some applications for 29 inch hoops are less than ideal. Some of the tire sizes are getting so large as to diminish and be counter-productive to the advantages of big hoops. IMO 29′ers are ideal for SS, 1×9 and more modest/minimal configurations. Full on FS and downhill rigs just seem to be overreaching complexity and configuration for the wheel size but for a very few super human and super-sized humans. For the rest, that’s a lot of heft to haul around on already larger wheels. I suspect the novelty of spinning 2.55 or really knobby and really heavy 2.3’s may get old for others. I won’t belabor the point, just to say that the size and additional rotational mass of 29 inch wheels can be pushed to the point that the drawbacks would exceed the advantages. At present many appear to be still looking through 29′er rose colored glasses at the limitations.
FWIW, I’m a committed rigid SS drop bar and 1×9 29′er adherent- I like the big hoops for these applications and my riding style. However, if I were to head down the FS path, 650B would be the way. FS 29′ers don’t make sense to me. I also don’t think 29′ers make sense for the shorter folks either- regardless of whether a frame can be fitted to these sizes or not.
29 inch wheels have been the only alternative to 26 inch wheels up until now, now that there’s a wide range of choices, the market may see some people, and maybe a significant number shift to 650B’s to fine tune their optimal wheel size. More options are great, it will be interesting to watch.
Moondoggy: Well, I wasn’t the one that put forth the notion that 650B was “five years ahead of where 29″ers were” when 29″ers debuted. That was the advocates of the 650B wheel last summer, if I remember correctly. This sort of notion has been commonly put forth as one of the reasons 650B would take root.
Besides, it has nothing to do with the fact that things have cooled off dramatically in terms of “buzz” in the industry over this wheel size. It also has nothing to do with my opinion, which is that this is the time for 650B to take off………or not.
Also note: I did not say that 650B isn’t good or bad for anybody. I don’t have a problem with the format personally. I am just curious as to whether or not there is any traction to this notion of others that 650B will have anywhere near the effect on the mountain biking world as 29″ers already have. (My belief is that it will not) I agree that it will be interesting to watch.
It is NAHBS. North American Handmade Bicycle Show. why do people add the extra M?
you seem to discount the smaller builder as if they do not count and only want a BIG company to come out with something before it is “for real”. it takes these companies more than a few months to enter such a market. many of the big box companies are putting time in on the 650b and seeing if it is viable for them. this will take a full year + of testing before YOU will see anything.
everything takes time. it took Trek 2 years to catch up on carbon fiber “technology” if you must and they missed the boat for many sales.
NAHBS: Sorry if I offended with the inclusion of the “M”. Perhaps some folks see “handmade” as “hand made” and that may account for the confusion?
If you feel that I am “discounting the small builder” you are missing the mark. I rather enjoy and celebrate the small builder. I own two small builders bikes personally, and I can not wait to see the show this year, (albeit from my home on the web). I absolutely love hand made bikes and the craft that it takes to produce them.
As for 650B mountain bikes, again, the idea was that they were “five years ahead of 29″ers” and that we would be seeing a host of new 650B bikes coming out. (A certain promoter of the wheel size proffered a list of several companies that were “working on” 650B bikes before Interbike)
I am just saying that the buzz is much less than before and that the time is now for something to happen “if” this wheel size is to be anything other than a small, custom builders niche. Not that there is anything wrong with that, it just isn’t what was portrayed before Interbike last year.
I’d say we all have to give it more time.
Seems like the reviews via the mtbr.com forum dedicated to 650bs and other types of big wheeled bike configurations (whatever they may be) have been positive with regard to the wheelsize and the Neomoto tire as well.
But more options in rim choice, fork choice, and tire choice will be critical going forward.
I also think one cool thing the 650b wheelsize has for it is the fact that it will fit in current/older 26″ frames without any modifications and without screwing up geometry too much (and perhaps in some people’s eyes actually improving things a bit).
Here here, MMcG! I think it’s too early to tell, but I have a sneaking suspicion that 650b will stay where it has been in the custom arena. I wish all the companies trying it all the luck in the world, but I really see aNOTHER wheel size too confusing for the general bike marketplace.
C’mon Mark! The main point you’re belaboring here is the “5 year” thing. I agree that that quote was a bit - optimistic - to but sure. Remember how long it took 29er’s to catch on? It was certainly said too soon. Personally, I’d have waited till AFTER this years NAHBS to state something like that. We here know that its the small guys that push the big guys into doing something innovative.
I DO see traction for the 650b thing. In fact I do hope that it catches on. Where I see that market headed for the most part is the FS/All mountain thing. While we know that its possible, and has been done successfully, FS 29er’s DO face some design limitations(chain stay length for one) that not everyone can get around.
I see the 650b thing as mostly a wheel thing. Many frames are already compatible, and all that a manufacturer really has to do to make the wheels work is rework a few numbers. That is, if they want their frames to be capable of accepting the wheels, and providing their customers with the option of running a bigger wheel.
Fork manufacturers will come around. FOX for now is covering their own ass. Betcha they’re running some modeling programs to see if the forks will be damaged by running the 650b. My guess is no harm will be done. Lookit the 36. A fork clearly capable of handling really nasty terrain, and they’re worried about a wheel with a diameter easily the same as some tires run in that fork that are “26″ The Pike fits the 650b. Bet RS is looking at increasing the arch. Some Manitous fit the bill. Bet they’re doing the same as RS. I know making a casting change like that is expensive. But its probably cheaper than creating a whole new line of forks for another wheel size. May as well kill two birds with one stone, no? Then there’s Velvet/Xfusion. Yeah, no ones really heard of ‘em, but they’re not worried about this wheel size thing. Same with White Bros.
Give it a chance to mature before piling it on. It IS winter after all, news is slow. And I know you’re digging for some activity here.
And you got it.
martini: Well, the title of the post - “Is there Life After The Buzz” shoulda been a clue, no?
Heh, heh! And you are giving me at least a considered reply, for that I am grateful.
Look, I know I am belaboring the point about the “five year” thing, but again, if you put claims out there like that, they need to be backed up with at least some shred of reality, or you are not going to be listened to much anymore, ya know?
I suppose I could have waited until after the NAHBS, (got it right that time!) but my intel on the show says it’s going to be all about utility/commuter/touring bikes and the 650B mtb, while being represented, won’t be showing anything new.
I think that is a shame, really. I know that appologists such as yourself are saying, “give it time”, and I would normally agree, but the pre-Interbike hype on this format was so hot and if it cools off now and after NAHBS, well……..I don’t think even five years will help.
Hey! Maybe I’ll be totally wrong about it, but my gut feeling is that it’s now or never for 650B mtb. (From a marketing standpoint, mind you.) I am still not convinced that it will be anything more than custom builder niche stuff,; however, you build a strong case for it being something else. That much I’ll admit.
Thanks Marty!
Guitar Ted, I’ve looked over my reply and I’m not seeing anything that would warrant the defensive tone in your reply.
Now who really listens to marketing hype anyway? “FIve years”,” ten years” …. it shouldn’t carry that much weight, even though there is some merit to the assertion. The proof is in the pudding. Physics don’t lie- regardless of how long that takes folks to figure out. My guess is that 650B”s are both benefitting and suffering from the period in time that they are being released. On one hand 29′ers have opened up peoples minds to a larger wheel size than 26 inches. On the other hand, people are pretty enamored with their new-ish 29 inch wheels and aren’t really looking for yet another wheel size to try or change over to- regardless of 650b’s merits. 650’s are kind of living in the 29′er shadow for the time being. It may take a while for people to trickle over to the new kid on the block, while 29′ers still occupy the lime light.
I suspect that those folks who really shouldn’t be on a 29′er in the first place and some of those, trying to remake their 26 inch ALL mountain, new mountain… (insert marketing label here), free ride bike ala 29 inches, will migrate over in due time.
I don’t have a 650B and don’t intend to get one, but I confess that the sight of these converted Surly 1×1’s has stirred up some curiosity….
I always go with the “wait 2 years, 4 months, 6 days, 12 hours, 37 minutes and 6.25 seconds” marketing strategy, myself. Seems to work. I’d explain why, but it’s pretty much all science and I don’t want to make anyone feel dumb…
Moondoggy: I’m not being defensive in the least. I was just pointing out that much of your reply had not much if anything to do with whether or not the “buzz” had died down in terms of 650B and whether or not you folks out there see it going anywhere.
As to your “marketing hype” comment, I say “Thank you for recognizing it as such.” That’s exactly what the line of thinking amounts to that I referenced. And, I would submit, it is about all that 650B off road has going for it, if in fact it has anything going for it, from a perspective that looks outside of the small builders market. Now, please be advised that I do see merits in the wheel format, which you took great pains to point out, but that is not what this is about.
Whether or not anybody will “migrate over in due time” will depend entirely upon whether or not the cycling industry outside of the niche small builders will embrace the wheel size as something marketable. I would submit to you that something “martini” brought up in his response is what will make 650B marketable, if it ever is, by the cycling industry at large. That being the ease of modifying existing frames and forks to accept the wheels. As noted, there are forks and frames that will already accept 650B wheels easily that were meant for 26 inch wheels. I think a “convertable” frame/fork manufacturing technique would be adopted to minimize duplication in manufacturing costs and make 650B something that could be used as a marketing tool and not cost much if anything to the companies jumping on board. Sounds good, doesn’t it?
Well, to my mind, it only defines the minimal differences between 650B and 26″ers. I know it is a popular thing to say that a 650B wheel is “right in between a 26″er and a 29″er”. I have ridden all three wheel sizes and in my opinion, it doesn’t play out that way on the trail. 650B is way more “26″er-ish” than “29″er-ish”, if such a terminolgy can be used. It is also interesting to note that with current 2.5″ plus 26″er rubber, the difference is nearly wiped out between 650B and 26 inch.
Finally, if in fact the main proponent of this wheel size is able to convince a tire manufacturer to make a 650B tire that is 2.5″ or bigger, it will wipe out the ease of transferability between 26 and 650B that might bring the idea to fruition on a larger scale. Then you would be on the “five year plan” towards frames/forks that would be compatible. Heck, there aren’t many frames that will accept the current largest 29″er tire out now, and for sure the one in the pipeline I am aware of only fits a small handfull of frames currently available, and 650B would be in the same pickle.
Nope, I’m not being defensive, I believe I’m just looking at it realistically. 650B has a huge uphill battle to climb out of something other than just another cool idea for custom builders to play with. That battle may well be lost due to the lack of interest, or “buzz” if you will. And that is what this post is all about.
Personally, I think the 675W wheel is going to be the way of the future.
I can’t wait for the Rwanda Coffee Bean Picker’s bikes to become available. Those 13″ wooden wheels with the semi round shape and bark for tread……….I get emotional just thinking ’bout it.
The recent MBA article about 650B wheels was very interesting, did anyone else here read it? Mark brings up some good points concerning the 5 year thing. Who originally made that comment? I thought I heard it hear first from a fellow 29er conceding the point.
At any rate Chis from Niner made similar comments, saying:
“29″ wheels will supplant 26″ wheeled bikes by 2017. In ten years, all mountain bikes sold from $1000 to $1500 and above will have 29″ wheels.”
He went on to say: “I’ve been cycling for over 20 years, and i have seen that every new technology has been resisted primarily by those who have little or no time on the technology.”
Hmm… these are some bold and ironic statements if you ask me. Who’s willing to bet that the guys at Niner haven’t ridden a 650B bike? Even Mark has only ridden one, once at Dirt Demo. Hardly a sufficient test to draw any concrete conclusions from, eh?
I suppose when you name your bike company “Niner”, or your blog “twentynineinches” what other position can you take? Talk about painting yourself into the proverbial corner from a marketing standpoint.
Hey, I am not knocking the guy! Niner makes great bikes; I have a couple of them and will likely never switch to a new wheel size.
Well if nothing else, it will be interesting to see where this all goes over the next few years. I might get one of these things for my wife and kids if they stick around. With all the bike and component makers claiming to be interested in the wheel size, we may not have to wait around long.
peace -
NN
650B will catch on in my opinion, the 29er movement lasted some time with limited fork and tire options. It was not that long ago that every 29er rider was calling out for more products, and it finally happened.
29er have come a long way since the 2002 Fisher Mt. Tam, give the 650B as much time to mature as the 29er.
Ok, Ishall give some time for the 635mm rim Mountain bikes to ripe. It is good option for those bore with 622mm, only if you can see the difference.
Seriously I would see more merit into reseaching some more quantum-leap like a 698mm wheels- 32er instead of 25mm bigger than 559mm hoops.
neener-niner: Quote: “Even Mark has only ridden one, once at Dirt Demo. Hardly a sufficient test to draw any concrete conclusions from, eh?”
To be precise, it was two different 650B wheeled bikes. To your point about experience, I think that fouteen years of 26″er bikes and five years on 29″ers is enough to tell me which side 650B is more like, which was the point of my comment you refer to.
Oliver: My belief that “The Difference”, which is to say the performance benefits of 29″ers, is far less pronounced going from 26 inch wheels to 650B. This is the reason I believe you will not see a mass of riders calling out for more components. The experimenters are quite happy now to be able to retro-fit 26″er frames and forks as well, further diluting any call for something compatible from manufacturers. These two elements of the 650B platform may well be its undoing, from the standpoint of comparisons to the 29″er movement. Not enough of a difference to cause much excitement and the ease of retro-fitting current 26″er equipment to 650B. Both of those phenomenons were lacking in the early 29″er movement, and so you really can not compare the two. Apples to oranges, as they say.
I will stand by what Chris, the leading proponent of 29er technology said:
“29″ wheels will supplant 26″ wheeled bikes by 2017. In ten years, all mountain bikes sold from $1000 to $1500 and above will have 29″ wheels.�
and “I’ve been cycling for over 20 years, and i have seen that every new technology has been resisted primarily by those who have little or no time on the technology.�
Who here seriously believes all bikes over $1500 will have 29″ wheels in 10 years? Who here really believes that 1 or 2 rides on any bike / wheel size is enough to draw meaningful conclusions?
Yeah, I have been riding for over 20 years too… and I would say that Mark’s couple of rides on a 650B bike qualify as “little or no time on the technology”. I wouldn’t presume that I could judge a bike or a wheel or any other component in one or two rides though, especially with how well most parts work these days. That’s pretty arrogant imo.
If that were the case most would not have converted to 29″ wheels. My first GF handled like a pig… that was a terrible 29er. But I stuck it out to give it a fair shake. What if someone came on this forum and said yeah I rode a 29er once or twice. It wasn’t any good, it will never catch on…I can hear the howls from the regulars here already! Ha! lol!
I’m curious as to why Mark even cares? Live and let live right?
neener-niner: Well, you are certainly entitled to your opinions, but after spending a couple hours on 650B in really great off road situations, I feel I can give you an indication of what is going on with them. That’s my job. Take it or leave it, I am not retracting my notions that 650B is more akin to 26″ers than 29″ers. Nuff said.
Quote: neener-niner:”I’m curious as to why Mark even cares? Live and let live right?”
This would indicate to me that you might feel that I am “against” 650B in some way. Nothing could be further from the truth. I realize it is just another bicycle, and at the end of the day, riding a bicycle and having fun on it is what the bottom line is. I haven’t lost sight of that.
My point is that there was a huge hyped up pitch on 650B before Interbike, now it has died down. Is it a movement that will take root? Will it even approach the levels that 29″ers have? Is it a paltform that will capture the imagination and passions of mountain bikers like 29″ers have? These are the questions I am exploring. This is what I care about.
If 650B does take off, hey…that’s great! I just am not convinced it will.
12 The Monkey on Jan 21st, 2008 at 10:45 pm
Personally, I think the 675W wheel is going to be the way of the future.
That’s the industry buzzzzzz at the moment.
650b is a lame attempt my a select few to try to distinguish themselves from the rest of the market. It’s silly. We do not need an “in between” size wheel. 26″ wheels are perfect for the free ride, downhill (which some even use a 24″ in back), etc.. crowd as well as those who are too short to properly be fitted to a 29er.
This is also a very irresponsible thing to do to bike shop owners. LBD’s have a hard enough time stocking the needs of 26″ and 29ers as well as cross/road/bmx/etc… They don’t need the new size either. I think this is an important consideration that many bicycle companies overlook because they are too often ran by people who “love the sport” yet have no real formal business background. I would not be surprised if Haro loses a couple dealers over this.
650b wheels have little true merit in the existing mtb market. Options that suit the needs of all are plentiful. 650b wheels however may be great for the recumbent crowd which is already well known for loving lame innovations that are as useless and as silly as the bikes they ride.
Sevo,
With very little research I’ve found that 650B has a very long history in the bicycle world (outside US) so one could argue that it has greater potential world wide than 29ers ever will… Maybe we can not see the forest for the (amero-centic-pov) trees?
That, and perhaps bike companies ARE looking at this from a bottom line POV? I can see a bean counter easily justifying the reduction of SKU’s by dumping both 26″ and 29″ versions of a given model and just going with one wheel size, ie: 650B. Things get done for this very reason in every industry, I see no reason why the bike biz couldn’t or wouldn’t follow suit. Then (some years down the road) your LBS could just stock one size tire.
Happy trails,
NN
Could a 650B will take the place of all 26″ wheels with the exception to free ride and DH bikes?
If serious R& D was put into the 650B wheel for the XC and All Mountain bikes, I could see the 650B wheel size be a serious contender.
So, am I to believe that you guys seriously think that 650B can supplant 26″ers and 29″ers while you say in the same breath that 29″ers will never supplant 26″ers?
Wow!
That’s a stretch. I seriously don’t believe either of those takes.
I’m pretty pissed that I wrote this whole response for this and it vanished.
Basic idea - I think 650B has a place. Look how long it took 29ers to catch on, I think its completely rational and the direction of the bike industry is more niche. A 650b might actually help sell more 29ers as wheel size should compliment the reason and size of the bike.
I think 29ers have their place, and I think 26ers do too but there are advantages/disadvantages of both. If a 27.5 meet in the middle and everything well why not?
Personally I love a 29er but would never ride one full time ever again. That is also my over thinking brain and I have a bike for every application. I look forward to racing a 650B in the next season and rocking socks off with it.
GT,
In my opinion, which is just that an opinion, I feel the 29er will remain strong in the SS, geared HT, and 3″ to 5″ full travel bikes, but after that, the 650B makes more since to me.
I do not see 650B replacing the 26″ wheel when it comes to DH and Free Ride, I think the 26″ wheel is the right choice for that kind of riding. Just my two cents.
For what it’s worth I think we all just have to wait and see. Regardless of big bike company support the wheel size has it’s merits, and it will be adopted by many of those riders willing to try something new. My gut feeling is it will grow organically via local on the ground riders, and fervent reviewers/testers on the web. New ideas can take off a little faster now due to the growing acceptance of 29ers. I can distinctly remember how strong the anti - 29er bias was on my local trails. There was a lot more “that’ll never work” attitude on display as opposed to “let me try it for myself and decide”. A lot of the negative attitude came from what people read, and what they got fed at the local shops (who, not coincidentally couldn’t justify selling those early 29ers). These days the number of local 29er converts is fairly shocking, even to a guy who tried converting folks shortly after his first ride on a Karate Monkey.
My point (if there is one here) is to let it happen, and do not worry too much about how it gets to wherever it’s going in terms of growth. If it’s a solid step up over 26 inch wheels it will grow. The types of people willing to build a wheelset and experiment, or go all out and buy a full on 650b bike, are riders first and foremost. They’re not tire kickers or posers. The bikes will get ridden a lot and people will give their honest take on the wheel size. This was a huge reason for the success of 29ers. I don’t remember the first run of big company 29ers (Fishers) doing much more than turning people off - this is in my neck of the woods anyways. It was the hard core local riders that started to show up at local trails that turned heads, and got people to consider the concept. Now everyone seems to be on a Rig or a Ferrous so go figure..
I’m not sure what anyone else thinks. Yeah, 650B’s “could” supplant 26 inch wheels. They won’t replace 29 inch wheels, but “could” take some of that market away if given enough time and promotion to attract the folks who want bigger wheels than 26 but can’t fit on 29 inch wheels well.
Of course 650B’s have a ride closer to 26 inch wheels- they are… closer in diameter. The point is that they are a step towards the ride characteristics of 29 inch wheels for those whom a 29 inch bike won’t work otherwise. All of the wheel sizes have their positives and negatives- depending on your situation. There’s no absolutes , just choices.
As for 29 inch wheels replacing 26 inch wheels by 2017, yeah, um, right…. Self serving marketing hype on crack. Nothing against Niner, they make nice bikes.
And, I’ve been riding mountain bikes for seventy seven and a half years. I dare anyone to top that.
I laugh at the thought of someone saying that the 650b wheel will replace either or both 26″ or 29″. That’s like saying hybrids will replace mtbs and road bikes. Not going to happen because it doesn’t do either very well…it’s a fad.
26″ wheels will never go away. (sorry Niner-love your stuff, but no). 26″ wheels work fine for smaller bikes, DH bikes, freeride bikes, and a few other lesser applications. 29ers work for us tall people great (i’m 6′2″), Marathon types, and the rest. Neither will be offset by a lackluster product that doesn’t do what either of the others already does very well. That’s coming from 18 years of bike industry experience. Not speculation.
You want to use 650b for DH? Well why? 26″ wheels are lighter and stronger so they’ll accelerate through turns quicker where every second counts and hold up to jumps and drops. Maybe 650b for your other bike? Why? 29ers will roll over objects better and get better traction. Plus with 60 tires available and countless rims/wheelsets you can go with whatever you want.
That said it took a few years for tire/wheel/rim companies to adopt 29ers. WIth the above stated facts they will not invest time/resources/marketing into yet another wheel size that doesn’t do any better what the two supported mtb wheel sizes already do much better. The market will never be big enough for 650b to justify the expenses involved with a tire mold on a wide scale. I know some of the tire guys and even 29ers with their popularity are a stretch.
Last, let’s see who has adopted 650b. Haro? Great brand name but they are not seen as innovators in the field and will probably be gone in 5 years unless they get reorganized. Pacenti and Carver? Good at what they do but they will not sell enough to justify a wide number of tires or rims to supply the 650b market.
In the end, yeah I’m a hair biased because I love my 29er. I sold my pimped out Ellsworth Truth (carbon bits, disc brakes, 4″ of travel front and rear) after riding my On-One Inbred with no light parts, vbrakes, and fully rigid….that weighed 3lbs more than said Ellsworth Truth. But I only made the jump because the 29er wheel made that big of a difference over a 26 inch and my options for tires/rims/frames was plenty and almost all the local shops at least stocked the tubes. Had I been presented with a 650b bike i doubt the slight difference in size would have made me sell the bike I lusted to own for 4 years. 29ers offer a big difference. 650b does not.
Sevo,
You have some strong opinions and you are more than entitled to them. But I learned long ago never to say “never” when it comes to bikes. If someone will buy it, someone else will be happy to sell it to them.
And I can’t help but go back to what Chris Sugai of Niner said: “…every new technology has been resisted primarily by those who have little or no time on the technology.â€? This statement is very true and in this case quite ironic.
I’d be willing to bet neither of you have actually ridden a 650B bike. I haven’t myself, but then again, I am not knocking them either. I’ll reserve judgment until I have a chance to ride one, if ever. Though honestly, even if I do ride one and love it, with 3 29ers in the shed, I doubt I would ever switch to another wheel size. I have too much invested in 29ers now. I am sure some here are in the same boat!
As for who’s making 650B stuff; even a cursory search on line will show far more than the few you mentioned.
Tires: Pacenti
Kenda
CST / Maxxis (rumored)
Rims: Velocity
No Tubes
Sun
Weinmann
Kore
Bikes: Haro
Vassago
Carver
Rivendell
Rawland
Fuji
SE
Vicious
Origin 8
Soma
Others?
And from the what I have seen of the Interbike coverage, there are a few more. According to the people promoting the wheel size, there are “nearly a dozen OE brands” looking into it… Only time will tell of course, but that sounds like there is more than just a little interest with in the industry. Plus there seems to be potentially dozens and dozens of small custom builders who could build these today if they felt like it.
You’re contention that one size will supplant any other is probably true. I don’t see 26″ or 29″ going anywhere. But I think that your working on the assumption that industry always produces what’s “best”. It would be a mistake to underestimate how strong a roll the reduction of SKU’s play in bringing products to market.
I doubt it would happen, but hypothetically speaking; if a bike company decided they needed to reduce SKU’s and rather than making a 26″ and a 29″ version of a bike they could simply make one model using 650B wheels, I think it could be easily justified by the C.F.O. They could easily rationalize that the wheels would fit everybody in their production range of sizes and they could nearly cut SKU’s by 50%. This kind of stuff happens in every industry on a daily basis; it’s certainly not beyond the pale of possibility for the bike business. Food for thought…
Blessings,
NN
Sevo: Just a word or two on your findings from the inner-web-o-sphere.
That list, I’ve seen that before……..let me just say that it is VERY optimistic and was generated by the main proponent of this whole 650B movement. For instance, the Origin 8 bike was a proto type floated to garner dealer response only. (As of this writing, my sources say it isn’t likely to make it into production) Also, several other listed companies were either unaware they were listed, or had only said it was on their radar as a possibility, which wasn’t very well portrayed by the generator of this list.
As for the tire from Kenda, I think it was announced at Interbike that Kenda was going to bring a 650B model to market for off road, but I have not seen nor heard that it is actually available as of yet.
It is also interesting to note that Pacenti has three more treads on the way as well, or so it has been said.
I’m just pointing out that there is a lot of hype and reality is somewhat less sparkly than is being portrayed in certain arenas.
As for bike shops, well……I actually work at one. Let me say this: The owners I have met are really fed up with lines that have too many models and that require proprietary parts. Teaching consumers about “new” stuff is also rather difficult for the shops and harder for the consumers to understand. Let me say this as well: We on these forums can not quite see these things. We are for the most part bike nerds. Geeks that the general public can’t hardly talk to. So when I speak of “education of consumers” and what is seen as “new” to them, I am referring to the larger chunk of folks out there that just want a bike to ride on the road or mountain.
I’ll admit that even 29″ers fall into this gray area that bike shop owners are resistant to. It’s not that they don’t believe in the ideas, but it has to do with hard numbers, selling “average cyclists”, and keeping a streamlined but representative line in their shops that is easily understood.
650B, 26 inch, and 29 inch is a case in point where owners of shops are going to throw up their hands in frustration. Too many choices that in the end cause their consumers to become disallusioned and that isn’t a good thing.
Just my two cents as a shop rat.
I agree to a point about shops feeling over whelmed but that also comes with education to the staff. The staff riding the bikes and being able to be a decent sales person and explain the differences.
From working in a high end shop that was very devoted to proper fit on a bike I see the need for a 650b to compliment the 29″. Once Fisher started having decent stock in 29ers we only stocked 21″ in a 29er. Now think about having a 650b in a 19″ or 17.5″ It makes sense.
Another way I can explain it is this. As a kid you got bigger and the bikes wheels got bigger. There wasn’t a 12″ wheel with different sizes, no you just got the next size bike. Yes this is far fetched but hopefully you all understand where I am going. When the 29″ wheel was designed you skipped over many body types & I honestly don’t think that most body types fit on a 29er. From a handling, geometry and weight percpective. (The weight perspective is more on the side of having a girl that is 110 or under propelling the wheels in and out of momentum.)
Do I think a 650b will fix that? Not completely but it will allow more options which to me is BETTER. Instead of 29er and 650b being their own models why not have them be sizes with in the models.
Arleigh: This line of thinking has been promoted before by Cloxxki. I would tend to agree, but I would say that in a “perfect” world, you would be riding the 650B at about 4′10′ up to about 5′4″ and 29″ers beyond that. 26″ers would again be the juvenile wheel size they were designed to be in the 30’s.
My shop experiences would tend to be more on the side of dealing with first time, or beginning cyclists, which the vast majority of Americans out there probably are. These are the folks that 650B, 26″er, and 29″er choices would only confuse and not be conducive for making easy sales. Remember, most businesses selling bikes can’t afford to stand around and give free educations to customers, and I highly doubt that the average customers I’m seeing would even care or want to know. “Just give me a bike already”, ya know?
I think de-mystification and talking to folks in common, non-bicycle lingo is where shops need to go. I think 650B only confuses the matter in this sense. YMMV
I agree about giving free education away but a good sales person should be able to talk to the customer and pull the needs of the customer out of the conversation. Then take the needs and put 1 or 2 bikes in front of them. I think here is no difference with having multiple wheel sizes to fit the customer better (size and needs) to having full suspension with 3,4, 5, or 6″ of travel.
So yes I agree to a point that shops need to go to a simpler idea, but that is why folks go to local bike shops. If it was easy and everyone got it local bike shops wouldn’t be needed.
Another point is most American’s that you are talking about are buying <$500 bikes which currently even 29ers barely can fit in to. Which would lead to the sales folks seeing that and showing them the Gary Fisher marlin or something along those lines.
It seems to me that this entire thread is built upon speculation. Comments about whether one wheel size will replace another or will whether or not it will catch on or remain an obscure niche are pretty silly. No one hear knows the answer to these questions with any level of certainty, no matter how much experience, bicycle industry insight and insider knowledge they claim to have.
My guess would be that the people promoting the wheel and making tires, rims, etc, would have a far better feel for who is and isn’t interested in the 650b size. At the very least - and no matter how rosy a picture (marketing, hype, whatever) the 650b folks are painting, that they would know better than the proponents of a “competing” wheel size, with a commercial interest in 29ers would, no? Some of these 650b things seem to have been in the works for years before they were announced. How could anybody but the people working on it really know anything about it until many weeks or months after the fact?
The only thing we can say for certain is this; Less than 12 months ago the first 650b (that I am aware of) bike was unveiled at the hand-made show. A mere 6 months later there were 10 or more 650b bikes at Interbike. And rumor has it that there will be at least that many or possibly more at the up coming hand-made show in a few weeks.
This is pretty impressive start for such a niche product imo. As much as I love my 29ers, one has to admit that the first 12 months of 29er development (starting from Interbike 1999) pales in comparison. At the very least it seams people and companies are far more ‘open’ to this wheel size than they where 29ers. Even today some big companies have not fully embraced 29ers nearly 10 years after they were introduced and have proven themselves in the marketplace.
Honestly, I was against 29ers when they first came on the scene. It took me a couple years to warm to them, I wasn’t very impressed with the first few test rides I took. But the concept grew on me over time and now I am a full fledged convert. It would be interesting to hear how many others here (if they were completely honest about it) fall into the same catagory. Even our own esteemed host only started riding 29ers 5 years ago… I wonder what his position was before he saw the light?
Hugs and kisses,
NN
Neener-niner: Well, it wasn’t for lack of wanting a 29″er that I had to wait until 2003. I was onboard with the idea in about 2001, but had no money at the time to pony up for a custom frame and fork.
Your portrayal of the jump start 650B has gotten is really quite simple to figure out. Two things have come into play to make fertile ground for this 650B stuff.
First of all, 29″ers paved the way. If 650B had been first promoted for off road before 700c based bikes, ( and as a matter of fact, it was!) It may have not had the growth you have seen in such a short period. In fact, history shows us that it didn’t take off at all.
Secondly, the internet marketing is far, far more intense than it ever was for 29″ers. Got any question about that? Just check out who posts on nearly every thread in the forum devoted to 650B and other “franken-bikes” on mtbr.com for a clue. That individual has a huge monetary stake in seeing that 650B takes off and is using that free forum to generate as much interest as possible. (This isn’t an indictment of that individual, it just is this way. I think that is quite plain to see) So, the mere existence of this forum on mtbr.com and the way it is being used is vastly different than the way things progressed on the internet for 29″ers.
To draw an analogy of how 650B is appealing to “open minded types” without acknowledging the facts behind this “open mindedness” is being a bit naive, in my opinion.
I think the reality of what you are seeing is being driven by a completely different set of motivations than what we saw seven or eight years ago with 29″ers.
OK, I re-read post #1 here just to for shits and giggles. A few things have got me scratching my noggin:
[B]“My feeling is that without a widely distributed name brand front suspension fork at a reasonable price, without a varied assortment of high performance off road tires, and without at least three mid-level manufacturers supporting the platform, 650B is doomed to be what it is. A niche product mostly turned out by custom, hand made bicycle companies in small numbers. Support for the idea is one thing, having the tools and availability to them is quite another. “[B]
I hear you on this aspect, but really all of the above echos what was stated about 29ers when they hit the scene.
[B]“These are the main ingredients to the success of 650B in terms of making any sort of a dint in terms of mountain bike sales at a retail level or in mountain bike culture. These are things I don’t see happening…….yet. Will they? I think the time is critical for 650B now and the North American Handmade Bicycle Show may give us a clue as to whether or not 650B has any life left in it as a commercially available mountain bike. It was at the 2007 version of NAHMBS that the whole 650B “crazeâ€? took root. I think it will be here, in 2008, that we will see if the idea still has legs, or if it is going to be a footnote in the annals of off roading.”[B]
Are you pinning all the hopes and dreams of 650b advocates on the success of the concept at the 2008 NAHBS? This was after stating that we’d need to see major industry support from the big players. I understand that the NAHBS and the Treks/Specializeds of the world are not mutually exclusive, but it still seems weird that NAHBS would be so important in the decision making at a big bike company that it’s a make or break type of situation. I think some of the thoughts echoed by NN with regard to manafacturers reducing SKUs shed light as to why a major manufacterer might choose to support 650b. For most of the bigger companies it still comes down to the bottom line, it’s not about taking chances.
IMHO the 650 scene is going to grow faster than 29ers at first (I will not speculate past a few months - 2 years) simply due to the availability of decent tires, rims and compatibility with so many frames already on the market. Their is some inherent affordability in trying 650b, as the initial cost might just be a wheelset + tires/tubes for those with a compatible frame. Forks aside there’s more quality product out there already as opposed to where 29ers were in the early years. I think we’ll see a lot of folks trying it out faster than folks did with 29ers due to the above. Whether they stick with it and want a 650b specific frame and fork remains to be seen.
* As as side note I think our faltering economy may play a bigger role in the long run, as expendable income gets tighter and many folks start cutting back on toys. This could affect the industry as a whole and make spending on a new concept less than feasible for a while. Of course, us bike geeks always find a way to fund new wheels regardless. What better way to spend that extra tax rebate?
Brendan: No head scratching necessary. The first referanced comment has to do with keeping folks interested in 650B. Keep in mind my posistion is that the “buzz” has cooled and getting folks on board with 650B to a point that lifts it above the niche levels will take a product dump as I’ve outlained
NAHBS is important because the main mover and shaker of this whole 650B thing will be there and if there is a lack of momentum in terms of new products, or at least news of such, then a plethora of small builders showing 650B mountain bikes with rigid forks or rare White Brothers front suspension built for 650B will not do much to stoke the fires. I don’t think there will be a large number of 650B mtb’s shown either. Sure, there will be a few, but this isn’t revolutionary, or helping break the notion that it is nothing but a custom niche. That is why I think coming out of NAHBS the future of 650B will be defined for the near term, at least.
Keep in mind, my musings are about whether this will get anywhere beyond the custom circles. Some posters here are saying yes, some say soon, some say give it time, and some say no way. I guess there is no real concensus and I remain non-plussed on the issue.
GT: “29″ers paved the way.”
NN: No argument here, but I am not sure what that has to do with the price of tea in China.
GT: “history shows us that it didn’t take off at all.”
NN: History also shows there were much larger forces at work to cause the early demise of the 650b mtb. It seems that several of the founding father, GF included, preferred the wheel size to 26″ but simply could not get them. If this 650b thing takes off, I would not be surprised to hear GF take the credit for it.
GT: “internet marketing is far, far more intense than it ever was for 29″ers.”
NN: God bless the internet; the free market system at its best! People use what tools are available to them. Do you think it would have been any different tor 29ers had they had a similar outlet for promotion and dispersal of information?
GT: “That individual has a huge monetary stake in seeing that 650B takes off ”
NN: Isn’t that what people go into business for? I’m sure Mark Slate had some expectation of making a return on the first 29er tire too. One could make the same argument about your POV. I assume this site represents some commercial interest for you, and the promotion of 29″ wheels helps make money for you. Ad revenue, free product, fame and adulation from countless throngs of 29er faithful. Now who’s being naive?
GT: “I think the reality of what you are seeing is being driven by a completely different set of motivations than what we saw seven or eight years ago with 29″ers.”
NN: Are you saying that you have some special insight into the mind of the person behind this? You can judge someones motives? That is a rare and special gift! Or are you saying that the development of 29ers was done for some higher, altruistic reason?
It seams to me the couple of people promoting this wheel size most, have had pretty distingiushed careers in the bike industry. I don’t see this as a part of some “get rich quick” scheme, to the contrary, it seems like a pretty big risk to me. Perhaps with as much experience as the proponents of the 650B have going into this project, there are some legitimate design reasons for a reduction in wheel size that the average bike shop employee can’t see?
Toodles,
NN
My response is bracketed:
GT: “29″ers paved the way.�
NN: No argument here, but I am not sure what that has to do with the price of tea in China.
[Well. if it isn't obvious that before 29"ers there wasn't a real choice in wheelsize then going any further with this discussion is pointless. 29"ers got people thinking about choices. Make sense?]
GT: “history shows us that it didn’t take off at all.�
NN: History also shows there were much larger forces at work to cause the early demise of the 650b mtb. It seems that several of the founding father, GF included, preferred the wheel size to 26″ but simply could not get them. If this 650b thing takes off, I would not be surprised to hear GF take the credit for it.
[Actually, Tom Ritchey was a big proponent. The thing was, there was so little difference between 650B and 26 inch that the easier path was chosen. If the difference would have been a dramatic one, one worth pursuing, then 650B wouldn't have gone away so quietly. In fact, some manufacturers even produced runs of 650B mountain bikes, one of which, a Raleigh Mountain Tour Tamarack, I actually owned. So, it was actually marketed and tried, then abandoned. "Larger forces" can be blamed if you want to use that terminology. Perhaps we will look back and say the same thing about 26"ers, 29"ers, or 650B? Whatever. The fact remains that it didn't take root. ]
GT: “internet marketing is far, far more intense than it ever was for 29″ers.�
NN: God bless the internet; the free market system at its best! People use what tools are available to them. Do you think it would have been any different tor 29ers had they had a similar outlet for promotion and dispersal of information?
[Sure I do. Don't you? Seems like a no brainer to me. ]
GT: “That individual has a huge monetary stake in seeing that 650B takes off �
NN: Isn’t that what people go into business for? I’m sure Mark Slate had some expectation of making a return on the first 29er tire too. One could make the same argument about your POV. I assume this site represents some commercial interest for you, and the promotion of 29″ wheels helps make money for you. Ad revenue, free product, fame and adulation from countless throngs of 29er faithful. Now who’s being naive?
[Sure Mark Slate wants to make money,(obviously), but he didn't haunt an internet site and use it as a defacto site to sell his wares against the forums own policies.
(Not that it really matters, just pointing out a fact) As to my motivations, you make several assumptions and I would caution you that you haven't a clue what my motivations are. For one thing, it doesn't matter one whit to me whether I get "free product, fame and adulation from countless throngs of 29er (sic) faithful." You are certainly going to believe whatever you want to, but as to this point, be sure I mean what I say. Naive? Go look elsewhere for that. ]
GT: “I think the reality of what you are seeing is being driven by a completely different set of motivations than what we saw seven or eight years ago with 29″ers.�
NN: Are you saying that you have some special insight into the mind of the person behind this? You can judge someones motives? That is a rare and special gift! Or are you saying that the development of 29ers was done for some higher, altruistic reason?
[ I can observe and make a judgment call based upon what I observe. I discern that an individual is driving the majority of the product development and hype surrounding 650B. It's as obvious as the nose on a persons face. 29"ers did not develop from a model like this. It could have, (Wes Williams might be said to fit that mold), but 29"ers came out of a different set of circumstances that doesn't resemble what I see happening with 650B. That's my take and I stand by it.]
NN: It seams to me the couple of people promoting this wheel size most, have had pretty distingiushed careers in the bike industry. I don’t see this as a part of some “get rich quick� scheme, to the contrary, it seems like a pretty big risk to me. Perhaps with as much experience as the proponents of the 650B have going into this project, there are some legitimate design reasons for a reduction in wheel size that the average bike shop employee can’t see?
[Well, thanks for the vote of confidence in the "average bike shop employee".
Again, I would submit to you that this paragraph you have written could apply to several business people involved in all aspects of the bike industry. Nothing special here that singles out 650B or experience. Besides, experience doesn't exclude mistakes, poor judgment, success, or good design. It is how that experience is used that matters.
I won't speak for the "average bike shop employee", but I remain unconvinced that 650B will attain anything near the success of 29"ers, or have anywhere near the impact that 29"ers have had. If they end up doing so, I will admit it with great joy, because as I have said, they are after all just bicycle wheels, and riding bikes is what matters most. ]
Well Ted,
I guess your mind is made up. Apparently, (according to your own writings) it was made up before you ever rode a 650b bike. Hmmm, go figure? I guess we’ll just have to agree to disagree. Pearls before swine and all….
At 6′4″ I’m pretty sure I’ll not bother with smaller wheels. But I do think they have strong potential. it will be interesting to see how it all pans out in a few years. fwiw, I am glad I don’t have a dog in this race, it wouldn’t be as much fun to watch!
sholom aleichem
NN
neener-niner: Mind made up? Well, I’m sure of what I believe, that is true. And for the record, I am willing to entertain a convincing argument. (That should be apparent from the number of comments here)
Looking forward to any and all 650B developments. I have ridden one I might consider owning, but to my mind isn’t as perfect for me as my 29″ers are. Those big wheels have characteristics that appeal to me and my riding style more so than smaller sizes do.
Thanks for taking the time to comment. I appreciate it.
Mark
I’m excited to see that you are open to the idea of 650b and that it just doesn’t suit your riding style.
Makes you seem much less grumpy
I like it when GTed seems grumpy! I found this whole discussion entertaining, and interesting, all on it’s own in that it really illustrates just how dorked out we all are. The head wrench at my LBS was musing about 650b the other night and summed it up pretty well: “29ers were dorky and now they’re normal, but 650b? Man, that’s like taped up glasses and pocket protectors and stuff” You’re way out there in bike geek land if you’re into those already”. Of course he meant this in a good way, or at least I think so..
I’m 5′ 6″ and I think that’s pretty much on the cusp of being able to see the benefits of a 9er without suffering through all sorts of geometry contortions to achieve both proper fit and handling, not to mention the weight penalty that is relatively more pronounced on smaller/lighter riders. I think the 650b wheel might be a good choice for me, but I’m still in need of more information. Unfortunately, I am not blessed by a huge rider population nearby that would offer the opportunity to try multiple bike/wheel combinations.
I’m looking for something that will complement my Yeti 575 (a brilliant FS bike for smaller riders, by the way). I’m looking for a hardtail for certain, something that I can race everything from short track to endurance. Something better suited to miles and miles of not-too-technical terrain like we have here in NE Oregon and Idaho. Would a 650b be a better choice for me than a 29er? I wish I had an answer to that question.
Evan: There are a lot of folks out there like you wondering the same thing. Trouble is, there are a lot of ways to answer your conundrum and not all of them will work for you.
Some would say that, yes: 650B is the way to go for you. Some would say stick to your 26″ers, some would argue a mixed wheel size bike would be “the best of both worlds”. I see all sorts of shorter folks on 29″ers. Really short folks. I know some that can ride circles around most on a 29″er.
Here is cycling’s dirty little secret. …………It is not the bike, it is the rider.
That said, for your situation it will require you to try something out. Yes, that may mean you will make a mistake, but to finally find that bike that makes riding off road so much fun, it is worth it. I found that with 29″ers. It revolutionized the way I rode. Would it work for you? Don’t know and can’t say.
I would suggest this though. A 650B is very close to the feel and handling of a 26″er. It has a wee bit of the bigger wheeled traits. I don’t think you would hate a 650B bike, and for sure, there would not be any geometry concerns at your height. I do know a 29″er would work as well, but the handling would be way different, (in most cases) than any 26 inch wheeled bike. Lots of folks would say it is better.
Watch for an upcoming series on Crooked Cog Network here detailing Arleigh’s foray into custom bikes. She is getting a 650B rig done up for her. You might find it interesting to see her take on it, especially since she has ridden several 29″ers.
Thanks for the plug GTed. I am getting a 650b bike and I hope to have a set of demo wheels in hands by next weekend to put on my 26″. I know that geometry/handling won’t be dead on but I’m interested to feel how well the 650b accelerates/rolls over things compared to 26 or 29″.
I hope by the middle of Feb. to have good honest opinions based on riding 650b wheels, and then a 650b demo bike.
Too……..many…………words………..headache……….everything getting dark…………….. can’t feel………….legs……….
Just some thought from the sidelines here… Coming from a shop that carries most tire sizes, 650B has always been an obscure tire sizes. It’s too bad we are so far into the 650B thing because I would have be far happier expanding my existing range of 26 x 1 3/8 tires, also known as 650A, or 590s, than introducing a totally new tire size that was never really sold in North America, except the occasional mountain bike sold during the late 70’s early 80’s. Certainly the 29er market has benefited from being the established 700c (622) wheel size - I’m certainly happy we’ve finally sold our 700 x 47 Panaracer Smokes that we got stuck with many years ago, after Bianchi dropped their Project line. But for the LBSs to be able to sell the merits of the 650B will be a stretch. It is easly to explain 29ers are the same size wheel as road bikes or hybrids. Other than the problems then associated with short 1″ headtubes, the Bianchi Project line was sellable for the same reasons that hybrids outsell comfort bikes (26″ wheeled hybrids) - they ride better. That was a difference that worked for many of our customers that bought the Bianchis. But 650B is better because why? Are they from France?? It was a dying tire size that was revived because why?? Whatever the merits of reviving the 584 tire sizes (which I fully support in the road world for many reasons), the 26 x 1 3/8 (aka 650A) would have been an easier story to tell and a more appropriate tire size to expand into off road capabilities. - “this is a tire size that was found on almost all three speed and five speed bikes make in Europe, Canada, Japan, US, etc up to the mid eighties and makes a great inbetween size ” or something like that. Unfortunately, we are too far into 650B to find a place for 650A except on old three speeds and road bike conversions done on the cheap… Long live the Sun CR18!