27Five: A Wheel Size Repackaged
July 29th, 2007 by Guitar TedThere is a new move afoot to bring you another choice in wheel size for your next mountain bike, or “frankenbike” project. It’s being dubbed “27five” by it’s main promoter and it has been promised to be ready to play when dealers come to ride bikes at this years Outdoor Demo at Interbike. What exactly is it and why should readers of Twenty Nine Inches care? Well, it may seem odd to you that a site dedicated to a wheel size would cover anything else, but in reality there are several paralels to 29″ers being drawn here and we are always suckers for anything outside the standard 26 inch wheel format. (Check out our previous stories on 36″ers for instance)
So just what is a 27five, you ask? Well, the first thing to know is that it’s nothing new. Well, that is to say that the wheel size is not new. In fact, it’s been in use for over sixty years, most notably by cyclo-tourists. It’s normally known as “650B”, and specifically as a 584 ISO bead diameter. This wheel standard hasn’t been much more than a curiousity in the annals of cycling for most of us, but it is worth noting that even some very early modern era mountain bikes used this wheel size. Mountain biking is no stranger to this wheel format!
The part that is “new” is that the tires, forks, and rims that would make this wheel format a viable choice for mountain biking today are already, or will soon be reality. If this is the case, then the question becomes, “Why should we care?” Let’s take a look at what the wheel/tire combination might have to offer.
It’s promise lies in the fact that a “27five” (the moniker refers to the outer wheel dimension of a 650B rim and 2.3″ tire combination) is right smack dab inbetween a 26 inch and 29 inch wheel in diameter. The thinking runs like this, some big wheeled benefits will be had while not gaining as much weight, losing as much wheel strength, compromising “tried and true” 26 inch geometry, and making longer travel big wheeled bikes more viable than it would be by going to 29 inch wheels.
Detractors claim that we already have 26 inch rims and tires that nearly come out to be 27.5″ in diameter already. We don’t need a 650B long travel bike, since the 26 inch ones are so good and are lighter weight with quicker acceleration than a 27five would be in that format. Some say the fact that the wheel size is so close to 26″ers that a difference will be hard to discern anyway.
Regardless of whether or not 27five will make sense for anybody, the format is coming. Tires made by Panaracer that are serious, White Brothers forks, and Velocity Blunt rims are all high quality, high performance off road components. Many smaller manufacturers and custom builders are taking notice, and are somewhat excited about the prospects of designing around this wheel package. Some are even making frames compatible with 27five already, and are simply awaiting parts to put on the frames.
Time will tell if this will take root, or enjoy a few fleeting moments in the sun, only to be whisked away and become the shadowy myth of a wheel size that it has been for over half a century. Whatever happens, Twenty Nine Inches will follow the developements and be there to test it all out to see if there is anything to this.
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For the record, the tire is a PACENTI product. Panaracer happens to be the
manufacturer I am working with. This is a great for me because I have long
been a fan of their products. However, people should not confuse my tires
with anything from the Panaracer catalog.
quote from Kirk Pacenti
I think that choice is good. If someone wants to make a 24, a 26, a 27.5, a 29. a 36, a 77, WHO CARES? Ride what works for the rider. Since fit is so important, the rise of customization and increased options is just good business.
Its a bike.
If someone buys a bike and throws a leg over it than we are all better off.
Amen, BunE. Let there be choice.
-Sean
I would be concerned that we are going down a path to balkanizing MTB tire sizes. 29ers have just gained widespread acceptance as the “new wheel size”. Someone else coming along and adding a new wheel size could create apprehensiveness in manufacturers about supporting EITHER format.
Same thing goes for the 32ers and the 36ers. These will HURT the availability of 29er parts.
Things keep balancing out. 26″ offerings will first be reduced in favor of 29″.
Then 29″ offerings suffer from 32″ offerings.
26″ dies out, in favor of 29″, and some 650B bikes manage to stay in the catalogues.
Hurt 29er parts 26ers die out? Both of these options seem pretty far-fetched, at any rate either the 29er or the 650 CC or the 26er stands on its own due to success in marketplace or it doesn’t. If you can’t get parts down the road (sorry about the pun) its sort of your fault for not backing the long term winner in the long run.
I know this kick -a$$ bike shop in Kansas City that will take care of you if you need parts though…
I have decided to embrace the 29er and I hope I will see the industry continue to offer it as an option. As modern production techniques are improved upon and demand increases, it become economically viable to produce whatever there is a market for. As customers demand better and better products, customization becomes more and more viable and affordable too.
The Bike Industry has just been getting more and more interesting over the last 20 years
Look at the EXPLOSION of options in the backpacking market, By offering more choice, the industry created more demand. Osprey Backpacks has so many models, I can’t choose! In the Music Industry, the cymbal makers Zildjian and Paiste have CREATED cymbals for drummers who didn’t even know they needed a “dry crisp heavy silk K Signature Crash/Ride”. These companies are selling more than ever with new players entering the market with different offerings as well. The advent of Mountain Bike created a market that didn’t exist on the scale it does today 20 years ago.
Do not fear competition, embrace it. It means more, better, and cooler shtuff for us at more affordable prices.
Kirk: Thanks for chiming in here. I appreciate the details of “your” tire design and that it is actually branded under your own name, which I had not seen before.
In the context of my mentioning Panaracer, I was trying to let the reader know that it is a quality tire and not some goofy “fly by night” tire that isn’t a serious dirt performer. (Just saying that Panaracer resonates with folks)
Looking forward to what might be coming in regards to your future developements.
Cymbals are an interesting analogy. But I will point out that a Zildjian wouldn’t require a special Zildjian mallet. Drummers can hit it with their sticks, brushes or any mallet they like.
I think this situation has better analogies in high tech where standards wars often delay the widespread adoption of a new technology. For example, right now High Definition DVD adoption is stalled by the debate between Blue-Ray and HD-DVD. With the exception of a few hybrid players, discs bought for one will not work for the other.
Adoption of 29ers has been stalled for quite some time under the fear that this would not take off and rival the 26 inch standard. Now, we are starting to get the widespread acceptance and others are jumping in with new standards.
If the overall cycling market had significant growth, I would say go for it. But this is a pretty static market and sales in one area cannibalizes sales in another. The idea of a 3 standard market is not too daunting (24″ (kids), 26″, 29″) market is not too daunting. But now people are talking about adding 3 new standards that requires three new sets of tire sizes and three new sets of forks.
This is not an issue of competition. It’s an issue of confusion. I think these other concepts are interesting, but ultimately I think it will hold down 29er sales as equipment manufacturers either hedge their bets with 650B or sit on the fence and wait to see which one wins.
it was not Kirk that replied. it was a quote from a press release he sent out to the framebuilders that are on-board with the concept and are working on designs.
Don’t need a special stick or mallet to hit the cymbal? Have you been in a drum store? YoWZA!!
I think that you make some good points, but here again, eventually a standard will win out eventually. With regards to bikes, again, who cares who wins? The 29er stalled for some time because the case could not be made in a strong enough manner to convince enough people that the 29″ MTB is a superior product? Is it? Is it really? Objectively, I don’t know. If enough people can be convinced that it is, than bravo, if enough people cannot than too bad. Become a frame maker and spread the word. By clinging to the gospel of the 29er we all risk becoming blinded to new and better ideas.
Biking is ostensibly a leisure time activity for the vast majority of us. Frankly, so is music. How many guitars or drumsets do I own? Enought that it makes my GF sort of nervous. I have intruments for this and that just like bikes. I am not confused, hell I revel in the miniscule detail. What is the size of the club, how wet are the trails, do I want vintage or not? Gear is half the fun!!!!
I am thinking of 36er with 4″ wide tires! Who is with me!?!?!?!?
Don’t need a special stick or mallet to hit the cymbal? Have you been in a drum store? YoWZA!!
I think that you make some good points, but here again, eventually a standard will win out eventually. With regards to bikes, again, who cares who wins? The 29er stalled for some time because the case could not be made in a strong enough manner to convince enough people that the 29″ MTB is a superior product? Is it? Is it really? Objectively, I don’t know. If enough people can be convinced that it is, than bravo, if enough people cannot than too bad. Become a frame maker and spread the word. By clinging to the gospel of the 29er we all risk becoming blinded to new and better ideas.
Biking is ostensibly a leisure time activity for the vast majority of us. Frankly, so is music. How many guitars or drumsets do I own? Enought that it makes my GF sort of nervous. I have intruments for this and that just like bikes. I am not confused, hell I revel in the miniscule detail. What is the size of the club, how wet are the trails, do I want vintage or not? Gear is half the fun!!!!
I am thinking of 36er with 4″ wide tires! Who is with me!?!?!?!?
Correction: Well, with a moniker like yours, it could be understood why I took it to be Kirk. My appologies and thanks for the info!
Almost forty years ago, I was very happy to play with my eight Hot Wheels. My son has about three hundred. I watched cartoons for a few hours on Saturday mornings. My son can watch Sponge Bob twenty-four hours a day on TWO different channels.
If the market exists or can be created — that’s great as far as I’m concerned.
BunE: Tents and sleeping bags are cheaper now than they were twenty-five years ago and better quality. My new North Face tent cost less than my VE-23 purchased in 1982.
John,
That is the whole point! Yeah!
My new Mountain Hardware 3man cost less, weighs less, performs more and looks better than my 2 man from 1997.
Now let it be said that I am for not wasting resources or slowing down development of existing products, but for the most part, the market takes care of its own. If there is a demand, there is a supply. Now, I am not gonna go out and buy a 27.5er. (I am now thinking about a Full Suspension 29er Yikes!). I sort of agree that the 6 standards thing is a bit much, but look at the 1″, 1 1/8″, 1 1/4″ steerer tube thing. Bah! But if a 27.5er makes you want to ride. More power to you. If you are so consumed with the perfect bike for you indvidually, save your pennies and get yerself framed, learn to build wheels and for godsake, RIDE!
I want to try a 27.5 front on one of my 26ers and see if it makes a decent conversion. I like all of my bikes and my 29er never made me want to get rid of my 26ers. What i did after getting a 29er was get a new road bike. So when I get a chance to get the parts I’ll build up a 27.5 wheel and give it a go.
And before you start griping about mixed wheelsizes, tell me why it’s not holding Eatough back on his 69ers.
27.5 is a fad! just some one trying to cash in on the big wheel movement, though I have not ridden a 27five I doubt it will make much difference (case and point-its Still a 26″ tire), or enough of a difference to take off like 29ers.
On the other hand, options are good! if ya like it go for it.
I can see having three sizes that would serve as being proportionate for different sized people.
Except, if one would always take a wheelsize proportionate to rider size, with 2″ frame height increments, wheel size would end up having to be offered in 2″ increments as well. Meaning : if 29″ is supposed to be right for, say, an L, 650B is actually a bit big for an M. Think about that.
And yes, I actually did the math
Do S riders pick 24″? No, although they could easily make a decent custom (or kids) bike if they wanted to. So 26″ (26.6) seems preferred already for S frames. 26″ is only slightly less than half the typical S rider’s height. Inseam also is around half a rider’s height. Frame increments of 2 inch reflect 4″ in rider height, making for 2″ wheel size increments.
Between 26″ and 29″ is 2.5″. 650B is an inch more than 26″. Typical stock bikes come in 4 sizes, spanning 6″ in frame height, serving riders 5′2″ to roughtly 6′6″. which-ever wheelsize you associate with a given frame size or rider height, wheel sizes come up short, too closely spaced, serving the lower of mid range of riders only.
Cloxxki,
Come on, be realistic.
Don’t forget, with disc-brakes a 29er frame could probably run a 650b wheel with a wider tire on it than could run with 700c wheels. The same could be said for a 650b frame and 26″ wheels.
One bike with multiple wheelsets for different terrain.
Interesting…
It seems we’ve heard some very similar arguments against a certain wheel size before…. And despite the initial challenges it had to overcome, 29′ers have become quite successful.
The thing that puzzles me most is the “logic” [Myopic Zealotry?] here that says because 29′er have become successful they must be “good / right”, and that anything less is a step backwards. More puzzling still is the idea that if 29″ is good, bigger wheels must be even “better / more right”. ???
I would assume guy’s like Dave Turner and Noel Buckley know what does and doesn’t work; we’ll more so than most “internet guru’s” anyway. It’s highly doubtful that they are “looking to cash inâ€? on anything…
Some have even postulated that this is just a gimmick that will allow small builders to compete against the likes of Trek and Cannondale now that they have entered the 29’er market…. Huh, you’re kidding right? Where would 29’ers be without custom builders? Who needs Trek or Cannondale’s validation before riding what works for them?
Here’s an interesting excerpt from a Dirt Rag interview with Wes Williams circa 1999-2000-ish.
————————————————————————————————————
DR: Are there disadvantages of 29″ versus 26″ wheels?
WW: The disadvantage is that it’s heavier. The main problem with this wheel is that people “perceive” there is a problem. They think “Oh, you can’t fit frames around those. Oh, you can’t find tires. Oh, you can’t find a shock.” No, my customers are riding these bikes. I’m delivering these bikes and have been for six years. There are no problems. It’s a “perceived” problem by the industry that there are no rims. It’s a “perceived” problem that there are no tires. Yeah, there aren’t many choices, but what did the whole industry start out with? Nothing! We started with Uniroyal knobbies that were made in the ’60s and steel rims and Schwinn frames that were designed for children. So, you gotta start somewhere with the rims and tires and stuff.
I was the guy at the trade show (Interbike) last year in the cowboy outfit running around making a big stink about this, because the industry has its head up its ass. They don’t see the potential, because they won’t try it. Most guys will poo-poo it before they try it. They’ll trash it verbally before they try it
DR: Who do you see as potential customers?
WW: I think the potential customers are the more intellectual ones. In other words, smarter people are going to be buying these bikes. Older, smarter people. Because it is a more intelligent concept-it works better. It’s the stubborn, dumb guys that won’t get it.
————————————————————————————————————
Hmm…. sound familiar?
Article on Kirk Pacenti
http://www.bikelugs.com/article-custom.html
Another 650b bike already in production:
http://www.kogswell.com/products.html
Speaking of 1 bike and multiple wheelsets- this is why I got a 29er- I have a pair of 32h 700×38s for commuting, a pair of 32h 29×2.1 for off road and an additional 36h rear for hauling/towing, for each.
Though I think 27five will be a fad, I think it would be interesting to try a pair on my 26er
Rockhound,
>Come on, be realistic.
>
>Don’t forget, with disc-brakes a 29er frame could probably run a 650b >wheel with a wider tire on it than could run with 700c wheels. The same >could be said for a 650b frame and 26″ wheels.
>
>One bike with multiple wheelsets for different terrain.
I doubt 29″ frames could handle much wider tires if a 3/4″ smaller rim radius were used. And in any case, the BB would end up lower. You can’t get 27.5×3″ tires (and won’t for some time to come), and they’d sag more anyway, so lower BB.
In general, bikes with wider tires demand taller BB’s. Look at road, cross and MTB bikes, all sharing the 700c rim standard. 60-70mm BB drop figures are very usual for any of them. Right the middle of it’s range, actually.
Why go to a smaller rim to get fatter tires? I’ve read reports that the 29×2.55″ (actually narrower than it sounds) WTB Weirwolf rolls the Snow at least as well as the 26×3.7″ (bigger than it sounds) Surly Endomorph tires. And that’s a huge difference in width.
I want a proper frame built to take the 700c x 3.0″ tire Surly won’t make me. It will make the 26×3.7″ seem like a square wheeled contraption.
I heavily doubt that the market will support three wheel sizes, because unlike symbols, that fit on the same stands no matter what sounds they make, bikes require cooperation from many different manufacturers from fork makers to tire makers to wheel makers. Whether anybody wants to admit it or not, without a major bike manufacturer (Fisher), the 29″ wheel would have been a tiny niche market without many parts choices or much of a manufacturing future. IE without mass market pressure, we would have never seen the Reba, or the forthcoming Fox forks, or the tubeless standards, the crossmax wheels etc etc etc.
I don’t currently see a major manufacturer on the 27.5 bandwagon and after watching so many large manufacturers drag their feet regarding the research and development expense for so long on 29ers, I would be very surprised if they decided to engage in another expensive experiment. 27.5 might be great, it might even be the best choice, but it seems unlikely to get traction (pun intended)
Now,can we talk about something currently relevant? The above mentioned major manufacturer started shipping HIFI plus’s this week, has anybody seen one?
Vic
Anybody can manufacturer symbols, just look at prince!
Well, it looks like several things are being hit on here.
Some say bring it on, more choices. Some say it won’t fly, too many choices! And some, sadly, are playing the “zealot card”, which is really old.
rockhound points out a very typical “portuer” bike, (which isn’t really what we’re talking about here), that represents a resurgence amongst the custom cognescenti and has been seen from several other small companies and builders of late.
A “real” mountain bike, one with the Pacenti tire and a White Brothers fork, has yet to materialize, but I’m sure it will soon. Also interesting to note: A list of builders already “in the works” with a 650B/27five was published with the result that several on that list saying they hadn’t any current plans to build such a beast. (To be fair, I know of some that are not on that list that are planning or working on a 27five.)
I’ll post another article soon that will detail my own personal take on 27five.
“A “realâ€? mountain bike, one with the Pacenti tire and a White Brothers fork, has yet to materialize”
It has materialized, in fact I’ve ridden it, and should ride it more soon, keep your eyes peeled…
Well, after a good chat with Dave Turner….he is very excited to give it a try (to say the least). Prototyping is currently in the works. His attitude was more like “hey, I’m not gonna get caught waiting on this like I did the 29ers **chuckle**”
)
If more manufacturers share a similar opinion, the 29er format will prove to have simply paved the way for 650b (like an older brother of sorts
I’d be happy to give one a spin (and if I’m lucky, it’ll be a turner proto!).
We all could just as easily have this same discussion regarding the number of teeth on a chain ring. Some like 42, some 44, and some even 46 — just depends upon what you’re doin’.
A 27five wheel will have the same advantages and disadvantages over a 26 incher as a 29er does, just to a lesser extent.
Check out my new site: 27five.com (just kidding).
dollabill is correct. Pacenti has already built one of these and it looked pretty sharp. The one I saw was white.
If you look at coverage from IB 2006 you’ll see one.
Argument from ignorance
The two most common forms of the argument from ignorance, both fallacious, can be reduced to the following form:
• Something is currently unexplained or insufficiently understood or explained, so it is not (or must not be) true.
• Because there appears to be a lack of evidence for one hypothesis, another chosen hypothesis is therefore considered proved.
An adage regarding this fallacy from the philosophy of science is that “absence of evidence is not evidence of absence”: Not having evidence for something is not proof that something is not or cannot be true. Similarly, merely not having evidence for a particular proposition is not proof that an alternative proposition is instead the case—it is simply lack of evidence, and nothing more. This is not the same as arguing against something that can, by its nature, never be proven.
Argument from personal incredulity
Two common versions of the argument from personal incredulity are:
• “I can’t believe this is possible, so it can’t be true.” (The person is asserting that a proposition must be wrong because he or she is (or claims to be) unable or unwilling to fully consider that it might be true, or is unwilling to believe evidence which does not support her or his preferred view.)
• “That’s not what people say about this; people instead agree with what I am saying.” (Here the person is asserting that a proposition must be inaccurate because the opinion of “people in general” is claimed to agree with the speaker’s opinion, without offering specific evidence in support of the alternative view.) This is also called argumentum ad populum.
An argument from personal incredulity is the same as an argument from ignorance only if the person making the argument has solely their particular personal belief in the impossibility of the one scenario as “evidence” that the alternative scenario is true (i.e., the person lacks relevant evidence specifically for the alternative scenario).
Quite commonly, the argument from personal incredulity is used in combination with some evidence in an attempt to sway opinion towards a preferred conclusion. Here too, it is a logical fallacy to the degree that the personal incredulity is offered as further “evidence.” In such an instance, the person making the argument has inserted a personal bias in an attempt to strengthen the argument for acceptance of her or his preferred conclusion.
I just had a 650b 27five bike built by ZR Cycles. We got some Heavy Mettle tubes from Pacenti, as well as some of his Baby Bear tires. I’m 5′6″ and the proposed angles of a 29er for me looked so extreme, I put off having one built. Glad I waited.
I currently have Velocity Synergy hoops laced, but am having Blunts built up in a couple of weeks when Velocity USA has them. I really like the fit of the bike thus far, it rolls right over stuff. The tires are BIG and they fear no rock. We’ll see how much I like them after 47 miles in a week and a half during Ore 2 Shore. When the new Blunt wheel set arrives, I’m planning on mounting some Fatty Rumpkins for commuting to the Synergy wheel.
The industry rumor is that there will be several (8?) 650b bikes next month at Interbike.
>I’m 5′6″ and the proposed angles of a 29er for me looked so extreme,
>I put off having one built. Glad I waited.
What do you mean? Boringly standard 73/71 angles is what I would propose for a 29″er in your size. With 170mm or 165mm cranks. Forks are on it’s way to make it wourk with short enough top tubes. Or a custom rigid fork with ~51mm offset.
Building a 650B for someone 5′6″ is by all means easier, but the idea that 29″ doesn’t work for your height belongs to the past.
http://www.somafab.com/somanews.html
I’ve been xc racin on a 2niner exclusively for the last 20+ races over the past 2 years. My conclusion is that though there are huge benefits to a 29er, its just to big for tight singletrack period. Wheel acceleration etc. etc. is drummed up hokey IMHO. I think the 650 will be THE perfect size for xc and I will definately be an owner.
i have to agree with deset9r, i now have 11 bikes in the garage (extreme i know) and they all have the same wheel size . at 6′3″ the 29er works for me and allows me to swap wheel in an emergency - there are pros and cons between 29 and 26″ wheeled bikes most important is to match you riding style and stick with that wheel size
When you think about it it’s a bit of a mystery why we stuck so long with just one wheel size.
I’m getting another 29er due to it rolling better over soft ground . I do rights of way survey work [that's a european concept, sorry IMBA] on footpaths across frequently wet fields.
I agree with Fisty though, there’s place for an intermediate size. I think that basically 26″ is a bit small to be optimul for a Mr average hardtail.
I already have a built up a C-dale Taurine with 650s and ready for the new season! Thats how confident I am that this is the best size for me for XC.
ever go online and see cheeep parts, especially tires and tubes and wheel? or go to your lbs and they can get you something you need for below what everyone percieves and retail? well the reason they can is because the market is flooded, which is good. enter too many different things and manufacturers will cut back because of decreased demand and .. all of the sudden we all pay “retail”. 3 different wheel sizes are plenty for the market, yes you should be able to experiment if you want, but if you do want to then you should be the one to look for parts needed and pay full pop for them, whens the last time anyone got a great deal on a weird size car/truck tire, besides whats been dicontinued.
All well and good but we already have two non compatable gear systems +hub gears, several different crank/BB systems, several headset designs, two stem/bar sizes, and loads of frame specific forks and shocks
Changing the wheel size seem relatively minor after that lot.