2008 Fisher Paragon and G2 Geometry: Update
July 3rd, 2007 by Guitar TedI have recieved some updated information to share with all of you concerning the new G2 geometry 29″ers from Gary Fisher for ‘08. Let’s start out with the heart of the new geometry: the Fox 29″er forks.
First of all, the new 51mm offset is an exclusive for now to Gary Fisher. The two models with the Fox fork will be the Hi Fi and the Paragon. The Paragon will get the 80mm travel fork dubbed, ( you guessed it!) the F-80. The Hi Fi will get the 120mm travel fork dubbed the F100 RLC. (F100/120mm travel? Uhh….okay!)
The very interesting thing with the new Fox 29″er forks is that Fox used a combination of crown offset and drop out offset to achieve the 51mm measurement. This was done so that Fox could retain it’s hollow crown design and keep the weight down on the overall package. It makes me think that the crown is the same as all the other Fox forks in this family and the sliders are where the changes were made. Makes sense from a manufacturing standpoint. We’ll see how it plays out on the trails.
Now on to the bikes. The entire hardtail line up will be G2 Geometry. What forks will appear on the Rig, X-Cal, and Cobia are not clear at this time, but several manufacturers are set to supply longer offset forks now so I wouldn’t be surprised to see some other makes of forks on some of these bikes. The Ferrous comes back unchanged.
The full suspension line up will consist of the Hi Fi in three spec levels: Pro, Deluxe, and Plus. The Pro model shown at the Ballyhoo will have the Fox F100 RLC, full XT drive train, and Avid Juicy 7 brakes. The wheels will be the Rhythm Elite from Bontrager sporting the 28mm width and will be tubeless ready.
Curiously, no mention was made of the Caliber or Super Caliber models.
The Paragon will be spec’ed with the Rhythm Comp wheels, aforementioned Fox F-80, full SRAM X-9 drivetrain, and Avid Juicy 5 brakes. The tires shipped with the bikes will be tubed models. Rim strips, valves, and Tubeless Ready tires will all be available separately from dealers.
The new bikes have not had MSRPs set yet and probably won’t be available until late summer/early fall.
I’ll post more info as we are able to get it.
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Thanks GT for the update. I am curious though as to why Fisher would be willing to switch platforms to the hifi and not offer anything except an XT level 29er ? Seems to me they keep moving backwards. The 06 292 was spec with awesome stuff, 07 Supercal scaled down a bit, and now possibly an 08 Hifi Pro with XT ? I currently ride a 07 Paragon, love it, can’t wait for the 08. Looks sweet!!!
Rant mode on.
Trek/Fisher is notorious for not sticking with a rear suspension platform for very long. I find it to be pretty annoying as a Fisher dealer, they don’t commit to one design, making it very hard for me to get behind a single one of them. Especially when each time they roll one out, they talk about how great it is. Think Sugar, Cake, Caliber & HiFi plaatforms, all within 3 or 4 years of each other.
Plus throw in G2 to keep things interesting.
How about designing a bike the right way just once, then getting behind it. Quit fiddling and do it right!
Rant mode off.
Does this mean that these new G2 geometry hardtails will have the same geometry measurements as the current 26 in. HiFi bike, at least in the area of effective top tube measurement?
I have long legs and a relatively short torso, which is why I’m interested in this since it appears the G2 geometry has a shorter top tube than the original Genesis geometry.
My understanding is the Trek Top Fuel 69er and the Trek hardtail geared (3X9) 69er also get a Fox 51mm offset fork. But (my understanding is) if the Trek’s frame geometries do not match the Fisher bikes, they would not be true G2 bikes (though they have a G2 fork).
The Trek Top Fuel 69er gets a 100 mm fork.
(source is a Bicycling blog)
bjdbike: Well, the HiFi is an updated Sugar, as far as the design goes in my eyes, so I see it as an evolution of the old 292/293’s with a different name. YMMV.
As for the spec, remember, there are THREE levels of the HiFi. I have details on the Pro, which is in the middle of the group. The “Plus” is even better, so your bling choice is still on the way.
The Monkey: Well, again, you might see the Hi Fi as an evolution of the Sugar, or maybe you don’t. I do, no matter what Fisher says it is.
Again, I don’t have info that says Fisher is abandoning the Race Day platform, but it wasn’t detailed out to me in the e-mail I received on the ‘08 line up. It was curiously left out of the discussion. I am trying to find out what the deal is, but I haven’t heard anything as yet.
michael: I don’t have a complete picture of just what numbers Fisher is running on these new ‘08 29″ers yet, so I cannot answer that question accurately now. My guess would be that you are on the right track. I too am built like you and I felt totally at home on the medium Paragon. I am 6′1″ for what it’s worth. The picture I ran on the original posting is of the Paragon I rode right after I dismounted it, so the seat is set right as I had it on my test ride.
carno: Well, Trek tends to mimic Fisher geometry numbers rather closely. I wouldn’t think that the 69ers would be too far off (if at all) from the 26 inch G2 bikes. I rode the large single speed 69er at Santa Cruz and it was an okay fit, maybe a bit too stretched out. But that’s a totally independant frame from the other 69ers, so maybe they will differ.
The bottom line is that by using the longer offset on the 69er, Trek will retain a trail figure very close to, or exactly the same as if they were running a 26 inch wheel up front. This would obviously keep the steering “feel” similar to their 26″er line up which would make selling the 69er concept a bit easier. It really hasn’t a thing to do with G2.
Not to be Negative Nancy, but, you can only redesign a single pivot so many ways. You will always have the same result. A design that will compromise pedalling efficiency for bump compliance. Or. Bump compliance for braking stability. Or…. blah, blah, blah.
Evolution is one thing, my pont is that evolving every 6 months is not right.
As a retailer, how do you sell it? How do you get folks excited about it?
I know from my own personal experience with suspension designs, that some work, and others don’t, and others fail miserably. Thank goodness for the stable platform shocks, for without them, we’d be stuck buying well designed bikes.
I have yet to ride “G2″, but as far as I’m concerned, it’s as good as the smoke that the big Midwest giant mat be blowing up your posterior right now.
I do not believe.
Marketing Hoo Haw.
I call Shenanigans.
Booooooo!!!!!!!!
I’m just 3″ taller than GT, but totally at home on a current XL Paragon.
I do have a bike shorter than the L Fishers, and that works out great with a corrected stem, but in my case I need the 21″ seat tube.
At first, when the 26″ G2 bikes hit (which intrigued me, as especially 29″ seemed to have a use for it), I understood that Fisher would just add the offset, and reduce top tubes to keep weight placement identical. No head tube angle change.
One could (and some brands already have), add the ofset adjust head tube angle a bit slacker, still have decent trail figure, and then take off a whole chunk of top tube. The change is worth around an inch, but then it would be considered “short”, which is not something for Genesis. Genesis set the standard for looooong top tubed bikes. Quite unusual on the shop floor at first.
Happy 4th to all. Once again Fisher has unimpressed me with their changes. I agree with Monkey mostly b/c I work for a Fisher dealer too. The 26 HiFi has the Pro model as their top then Deluxe, and Plus. Now it’s going to be turned around? The confusion continues. Don’t get me wrong I would much rather be on a fisher than most, heck look at the Specialized Stump 29er, not that Hot for $1800 ??
Happy 4th!
The Monkey: “Nagative Nancy”? Your skepticism and negative views on Fishers are quite noteworthy. I suspect that by now there isn’t much they could do to change your mind, which seems rather made up at this point.
bjdbike: I would also extend the above comments to you. I work at a Trek dealer, so I see a lot of the same type of sweeping year to year changes. Take the Trek headbadge change, (A great looking badge by the way), that is going to further confuse that market with all the new branding and ads. Then the new Madone, which at the instant it came out made every ‘07 madone on a shop floor obsolete right in the middle of the riding season. Thanks!
So, marketing frustrations all around at Trek corp, but what can you do?
Happy 4th to all!
It’s not that my views on Trek’s product are unchangeable, it’s just that they have yet to produce something that lived up to the hype (new Madone not included). It seems that they never really do their homework and rush something to market before they figure out it doesnt work. Or they botch the execution.
For all we know, G2 could be some marketing spin on how they are “innovative” because Fox won’t change the offset on their crown (total conjecture to illustrate a point).
But I would love to be proved wrong.
I think there is definite merit to some of the comments of the haters in these posts. The constant changes are frustrating, but, without the risk taking and constant tweaking would we have a pretty nice lineup of big wheeled bikes?
The same mentality that leads to the stupid Cake also brought us a lineup of hard tail and double squishy 29ers with a bunch of 69ers on the way. Trek fisher is the only mass producing bike company that has pushed the 29er forward. I for one have a hard time paying an extra 1-2k for a similarly equipped bike from a small builder, and would probably not be loving a 29er right now if it were not for Fisher. It has taken years for other large manufacturers to get on board because they are the opposite of Trek/Fisher and take no risks ever.
So, while I understand the frustration, I wonder if retailers would have been better off and sold more product if Fisher/Trek had been conservative like Specialized and left you with a lineup of never changing Sugars and Fuels and no 29ers on the floor.
wow, im excited about the upcoming hifi 29er offerings–maybe cause im not a trek dealer…
but i was wondering if somehow guitar ted, you were given misinformation?
for some reason i assumed that the hifi 29er was only going to have one model. now its three? as bjdbike pointed out for the 26ers: the plus was lower end, then the deluxe, and the pro was the high end version. now its reversed for 29ers? something doesnt sound right.
the current hifi pro is specd with mixed lx, xt, and xtr drivetrain and juicy 7s. what’s more, early glimpses last year of the 26er hifi was always the pro model–their highest end, which would make me think that the pro we have been seeing would be their highend again.
up until now i kept hearing that the hifi 29er was going to have 100mm. which would make sense with the observation that if f80 = 80mm, then f100 should = 100mm.
like i said, i wonder if you got some mistaken info, guitar ted. still, having three models to choose from and 120mm sounds good to me.
GT,
Love the site and am so grateful for the info you post; it’s always nice to talk sh*t to your store reps (most of the time mine doesn’t even know about the stuff you post!!) I’ll just have to wait to see the actual release of it to decide on my opinion. You may have seen it already but Cyclingnews.com has the specs on the 08 Stump FSR 29er and pics, looks sweet. Feel free to post any info you get PLEASE!!!!!
This was posted to the “Gary Fisher HiFi 29″ mtbr forum on 5/17/2007…
“Regarding the 5″ vs. 4″ thing - When we were developing this [HiFi 29er] platform, the 4″ platform was preferred hands down. The rider feedback on the 4″ bike was that it was the closest thing to the feeling of the 5″ travel 26″ platform. We try to develop bikes with the user in mind and not the travel. We understand the desire to see a number on paper, but in this case, we feel we have the best 29er trail bike we have ever ridden! As with anything, I would hope that you guys spend some time on the bikes and make your own trail-informed evaluation. …
Cheers
garyfisherguy”
100 mm = 3.93701 inches
I was hoping for 5 inches also…but this won’t stop me from buying one…and the garyfisherguy (who surveyed persons who rode both) says 4 inches is actually better…who am I to argue?
Guys: See the newest post on the site here about more info on the Fisher stuff and a correction on the F100’s travel……you’re right! It’s 100mm!
Hey all,
What about that all carbon Fisher “Superfly” I saw on cyclingnews. What fork is in store for this light weight racer?
from July 5th GT post:
“The news I have now states that Fox forks will be found on the following Fisher 29″ers for ‘08: The Hi Fi Pro and Deluxe full suspension models, the Rig, the Paragon, the X-Cal, and the Superfly hardtails. The crown on these Fox forks is the identical crown to the G2 26″er models with the rest of the offset for the 29″ers found in the sliders. So, it’s a “customâ€? set up just for Fisher bikes.”
These Fox forks will of course out-weigh the Superfly frame by quite a bit.
IMO the only worthy fork (quality and weight-wise) is the German Answer linkage fork. However, its geometry may work out less than perfect, as it’s an 80mm unit with the heigh of a 100mm telescopic fork.